Yet another reason to tell the UN to fuck itself

[Relbeek Einre]

Excuse me. The death toll is now over 56,000 - so fivefold.

[Alannia_Raindancer]

The bleeding heart in me (the one that cried horribly reading the news article) will probably empty the change jar and donate privately to the aid efforts by the end of the week. I've got a few things I can give up for a month or two to help out, and I can help in other ways too (Crochet web ring is already taking donations of granny squares to make into blankets and such). Every little bit helps, and the little bits can become big bits.

But despite that, Relbeek, when I first read your "We should be giving a billion dollars" line, my first reaction was "And which programs will you be giving up to do it?" *chirp chirp chirp* Perhaps that's harsh or unfair on my part.

I'm upset by the comment that was made by that UN representative. I'm not foaming at the mouth about it, by any means. I can forgive it, because it -seems- like this person was simply frusterated that money wasn't coming in fast enough to aid in this tragedy. But it still bothers me. And I'm sorry to say (and I'm not a Bush hater either), that had Bush come on the TV and publically said, "LOOK LOOK what we're doing! We're giving all this money to aid this cause! You all should try to do the same!", I can name a fair number of people who would have rolled their eyes, curled their hands into a fist, and made jerking off motions without even thinking twice, even if they agreed with the money being spent.

There is a big, big difference between doing what's right, and making sure everyone KNOWS you did what's right. And to be honest, poor Bush is damned no matter what he does. Folks like myself would rather hear "We're helping, help if you can too" without a price tag listed, because I shiver at what we're going to lose, even while believing this is a potentially worthy cause to lose it to. Other folks want to know exactly to the penny what we're doing. Still others don't think we should do anything. I can't fault the man for trying to keep a majority of this low key. I also admit that I believed he was smart enough to write letters, even without it being said in the media. Perhaps that makes me naive, but I WAS RIGHT!

[Croinc]

I took a shit the other day and "it was Bush's fault".

Just goes to show that the left will do whatever they can to demonize Bush and support the UN.

Maybe U.N. Sec. General Annon can donate some of his oil for food money to the disaster relief.........

Rumsfeld > Koffi

--Cro

[Fobbon Lazyfoot]

Just goes to show that the left will do whatever they can to demonize Bush and support the UN.

Just goes to show you people can't quit generalizing people into two fucking political spectra. I'm a socialist who hates Bush, the UN, and Canada - where do I fall?

[Bluesman]

/shrug show me a navy we don't dominate, launched the ronald regan aircraft carrier few years ago. Show me an airforce we dont dominate F22 is nice looking plane. Fact is we are spending cold war dollars on the military in all the wrong places. We are fighting terror so I'm told Osama has no navy/airforce.

Its an intellegence war we spend money on the pretty stuff (defense is over 50% of the budget) We can't invade everything till the world is set up nice. We shoulda done North Korea in my opinion if we had to do something else. They would have put up a military fight.

Theres "sleeper cells" prolly every nook and cranny of the globe. Its better to have people on your side I think then an extra aircraft carrier. We do need to spend more billions on star wars defense though. Since the nuclear powers pretty much rely on each other for trade and all... North Korea gonna shoot em up like its the fourth of july. Or maybe if they intended too they send in a single person with no return address so we wouldnt obliterate thier country, not sure what i would do.

The US IS only superpower left we could prolly cut defense and give billions to make friends or could spend it on more realistic military needs A Biplane could off Bin Laden if we knew where he was.

Reality is nobody in will shoot a balistic missle at the US. that we can potentially shoot down if its scripted well thats few billion can give to help people in need. Maybe I understimate Chinas navy but we have overwhelming power already In the air I think. Better off getting people in other countries to crack down on thier own /shrug... Bush 1 said were not gonna be world police Attract more with honey is my theory

[Bluesman]

hehe point was could help others with lotsa cash we spending on a non existant enemy

[Rsak]

That is funny i just heard a audio clip of Bush encouraging support and charity for this disaster. Not only that but the administration person in charge of foreign aid was directing citizens to not send food and medicine due to cultural and language barriers, but instead to donate cash to your perferred non-governmental charity organization.

That should probably mean something if you were not going through life with blinders on!

[Relbeek Einre]

Still don't see any report of such a clip anywhere, Rsak, and apologies, but I don't take your word for it. If he did, good!

Saw an interesting report on charitable giving and the whole flap about it. The US is near the top of the list in raw dollars when it comes to charitable giving by its citizens, but near the bottom of the list when it comes to dollars as a percentage of GNP. So the US gives more money to charity, but other nations give more OF THEIR money to charity.

Makes the definition of 'generosity' an interesting topic for philosophical debate.

[Rsak]

You mean a report like this?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142815,00.html

"We will stand with them as they start to rebuild their communities," Bush said from his Texas ranch in his first comments on the disaster Sunday that so far has killed more than 76,000.

Bush pledged a multifaceted response from the United States that goes far beyond the $35 million initially pledged, including U.S. military manpower and damage surveillance teams in the short term and long-term rebuilding assistance. He also called on Americans to donate cash to relief organizations to augment the response

Then again the fact that i have never lied on this board will not stop you from making accusations.

[Relbeek Einre]

Oh, he made the comments, um, TODAY, so at the time I made my remarks, he hadn't.

About time, Bush, glad he said such, but he took far too long.

[Rsak]

Wait let me get this striaght!

You think that because it took him so long in this one disaster to make comments calling for charity it means that he should not be commended in fostering charity?

You have admitted that he has encouraged charity.

Amazing the consistent message he has given on charity yet you are unwilling to offer any praise in his direction.

I personally think that Bush spent the last 72 hours making sure that we were providing the 35 million which is a start to the contribution that will come from our country. But then again i think that actions speak louder hten words while you seem to believe the oppposite.

[maltheos]

Well, gotta love it when the group that brought us the Iraq Oil for Food scam comes begging for a handout and then bitches that it's not enough. Sorry, that just doesn't fly. We should cut them out of the loop and do our own relief efforts if we want to be charitable. At least we know the people we help won't be eating animal feed while UN suits skim the difference.

The UN is a complete waste of perfectly good Manhattan parking spaces.

I find it fascinating that the Oil for Food scandal is as pressing an argument is it is. One financial scandal does not destroy the credibility of a government. Did Iran-Contra destroy the Regan Administration? There was much ilegal skimmage going on there. They admit bad things happen and are trying to fix it.

As far as the present item. I agree private charity has a place as well. However, the UN is a very effective relief agency( as a rule). I do not begrudge them any aid in helping in the aftermath of the earthquake.

As to your assertion that the skiming is guaranteed please give examples other than oil for food.

[Rsak]

Not that it really is core to your argument, but is the UN really a government?

[Relbeek Einre]

I personally think that Bush spent the last 72 hours making sure that we were providing the 35 million which is a start to the contribution that will come from our country.

Horsefeathers. That doesn't require his undivided attention for three days.

But then again i think that actions speak louder hten words while you seem to believe the oppposite.

I think both are necessary, and if he was so damn busy he could have foregone sleep for an extra half hour. We pay him enough to lose a little sleep. Or how 'bout GOING BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE or something?

[Torakus]

Relbeek,

Dispatching military units to disaster sites is pretty much automatic. But it does take time to get there. Even forward deployed units in Yokosuka, Japan take about a week to get to the area. The ground units of course can be there overnight, and as far as I know, some are. However massive diversion of military force takes time. Mobilisation of military force does not happen at the snap of the Presidents fingers. Certainly we could have a couple thousand SAR specialized troops in country in a day or two, but they would lack things like planning, logistic support, hell even country clearance. Thailand would be little problem since we have a SOFA with them, however many of the nations affected lack such an agreement which hampers actual entrance of our military forces into them. On the other side of that, even when we are in a country to provide humanitarian aid, search and rescue efforts or other non-combat operations, the U.S. military still represents the face of the U.S. and are seen as a military force. How well do you think they would be received in overwhelmingly muslim territory in the light of recent world events. Those are things the President must consider prior to dispatching troops there.

Another point is, that the SAR community in the military is not large. The Navy probably has the largest total force trained in SAR being that all Aviation Warfare Techs, Operations Specialist, and Quartermasters have SAR training in some aspect (QMs for the weather/sea current portions, OSs do the planning and control, the AWs actually do the searching and rescuing along with the rest of the air crew). The Airforce, Marines and Army, who do the most SAR on land actually are trained heavily in CSAR (Combat Search and Rescue) which is a much different animal that deals more heavily with ingress, extraction and egress of personell from hostile territory. The vast majority of these folks are currently deployed to the middle east.

Anyone can slog through the muddy jungle looking for survivors. This begs the question of why you think the military is better suited. Why didn't you drop what you were doing and hop a flight over to do it? Do you think we just sit around waiting for the Prez to call? Let me clue you in, we don't. Very few military units of any force simply sit idle. In the Navy, if a ship is in a U.S. port it is there because it has not yet certified to deploy. Generally this is a 12 - 18 month cycle in which time they are training for a 10-16 week assessment by one of the Afloat Training Groups in which time they are attempting to demonstrate proficiency in multiple warfare areas and non-combat systems operations that allow them permission to deploy. Allowing the Pres to deploy non-deployable units, even in emergency situations would be insane. It would place the crews, in some cases, in danger. If they cannot safely operate the ship, the definitely should not be deploying to help others. The same goes for the other military services who all have some type of unit level certification procedures before they are allowed to be deployed.

Note, I do not disagree that President Bush should be much more vocal in this situation. I think vocal support from the leader of the free world would do much to allay fears in some of these spots hit hardest. I agree as well the even 1 billion dollars is not an unreasonable amount to spend helping these people and would go a long way toward improving the American world image. However, calling us out on it, and calling us stingy, is way out of line. I think you would agree as well, that throwing money at problems has rarely ever solved them. Plans for the utilization of a billion dollars in aid that meet strict standards do not appear over night. Even if contingency plans exist for this type of situation, it will take days even weeks for the aid to materialize. I for one, do not trust the UN to administer U.S. emergency aid given a proven track record of mismanagement in this realm. On the same note, I really do not think the U.S. can do much better, but given the crushing media attention the Red Cross received in the wake of 9/11, I think they can be relied on to fly straight in this situation and would make a good target for administering a large portion of U.S. aid to victims. Of course the IRC has only asked for a small amount, perhaps they do not have the infrastructure to administer such a large amount. I don't know. The UN does, but unfortunately, I for one, do not trust them to do it without the pockets of the sons of Assembly members/chairs getting lined.

Torakus

[Rsak]

I think both are necessary, and if he was so damn busy he could have foregone sleep for an extra half hour. We pay him enough to lose a little sleep. Or how 'bout GOING BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE or something?

I coudl think of quite a few congressmen and women who should be at their offices working rather then travelling around the country.

But there is a large difference between what a member of our congress can do while mobile and what the president can. You seem to be implying that he is not working while out of the Whitehouse and as evident from the past week that is not the case.

[Relbeek Einre]

I agree calling us out as "stingy" is out of line. Was that the case of what happened? I'm unconvinced.

I know the military doesn't sit idle while it's not deployed, Tora. But it's also a labor force that is accessible by the government and capable of doing the job.

I don't think you and I are very far apart on this issue, it's mostly our language that's different.

Rsak: It's not all about getting the work done, it's about leadership. Showing that you take a disaster on this colossal scale seriously matters. Yes it's style, not substance, but leadership in large measure is.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Excuse me. The death toll is now over 56,000 - so fivefold.

A little over 6 hours....

[Rsak]

And this is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not consider the lack of a press conference immediately after the fact to be a sign that he does not care or has the best wishes for the innocents that suffered in the disaster.

You are welcome to say you would have acted differently, but to make the kind of accusations that he is doing nothing is grossly overexaggerated. You have let your disrespect for the man destroy your respect for the office by your statements.

So instead of being able to offer a simple amount of praise you have to taint anything nice you say about the man with your attacks. "Well glad he said such, but he took far too long..."

The reality of the matter is that he did not owe you that and if he wanted to remain silent to the american public for what ever reason (Respect for the dead comes to mind) he was entitled to do so.

[Burz]

He's on vacation for the umpteenth time. What are we up to now, 250 days or so of vacation in less than one term?.

Suggest you watch "Fahrenhype 9/11" if you buy into all that "vacation time" garbage.