I finally saw F9/11...

[jookkor]

Uh its not about who knows best. Obviously, Nobody knew *best* because the crisis was not averted. Its about the fact that one million people Looking at the same picture certainly have the potential to instintaniously inturpret it one million ways.

[Ddrak]

Atira,

You are being an idiot. The facts are smacking you in the face and yet you still push on in the face of them. Perhaps that is meant to convince me of the Canadian superiority over Americans that you seem to have a burning desire to evangilize? Let's take a look at your latest bout of fantasy:

"Just because the "News" hasnt told us what to think, doesnt mean individuals arent able think for themselves." - If you don't know something has happened, how can you think about it at all? CNN was the first to break the story at 8:48. CBC came a little while after at around 8:52. People in *New York* didn't even know what had happened at this point so how in the hell did people in Toronto know? Prescient?

"Its only logical to think that an aircraft hiting the one of the top three financial stuctures in the world, could more than possibly be intentional." - actually, no it's not. A tall building in an area with 3 major airports gets hit by a plane of unknown size (it wasn't known it was a 767 until after the second plane hit) and no news networks, people in NYC or anywhere had a decent enough handle on what was going on to evacuate buildings. Your memory is faulty - plain and simple.

"First hand reports of the crash came into Toronto well before the second plane hit some 15+ min later." - From whom? You keep saying this and yet provide no evidence.

"Our core was empty before the first building (what ever twoer no# it was) fell to the ground." - Toronto Star and Toronto Sun both report that core Toronto buildings were evactuated shortly before 11am. The first building fell about an hour before that. Web sites like Fark and Slashdot which were updating in realtime and have archives concur.

"I have first hand knowledge about peoples movements out of the city that morning, from 8:50ish to 10:45 am. So do tens of thousands of other Torontonians." - Any lawyer will tell you that eyewitness testimoney is the least reliable. Your statements here and dissembling contradictions help prove that once again. As a matter of record, the Toronto Stock Exchange was closed and evacuated at 11am.

Look, I can come up with any number of sources from Toronto, New York and others that document that your memory of the incident is faulty. All you've come up with is "lalalalala - I'm not listening - I am infallible". If you can't face you're own fallibility then your time on this board is gonna be entertaining.

You're the one portraying Canadians as flighty paranoid freaks though, remember. Not me. After all, it's *your* claim that they were evacuating buildings en-masse when all anyone knew was a plane, probably a Cessna had accidentally run into a WTC tower.

Keep changing your story though - you're so much fun.

http://wso.williams.edu/~rbhattac/fark4.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/features/oneyearon/timeline.html
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSWorldTrade0109/tor3.html
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/time ... 10703.html
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack010916/16_week-sun.html

Jook:

I never said I knew what anyone in particular was thinking. I'm just stating facts about when information went where Atira's story doesn't line up with the flow of information so either she is prescient (which may or may not be possible and is another debate), or like millions of trauma victims throughout history, has a faulty memory of the day.

Dd

[trigger4125]

I can proudly say I did not watch this movie. Nor the Farenhype or that other one that was out there.

I can say that making a movie like that was a disgusting thing for any US citizen to do.. yah I know free speech rah rah rah, but one should at least show some responsbility. Anyone could take clips and cuts from any public figure and toss them together to assinate anyones character, it doesnt mean it *should* be done. I know people will say *well you didnt see the movie*, and you are right but I dont need to see the movie to know what its intentions were .

One thing however, almost everyone in the US agrees with, and that was how well Bush rose to the occassion in the aftermath of 9/11. I know people do not like Bush on this board, and you may not like any of his policies.. but he will always be remembered for his actions after 9/11 and we should all be proud of the job he did in that area (up till he invaded iraq at least). Attacking him because he was reading to kids for 7 or 9 seconds after he heard about the second plane is so disresepctful to the office, and to ridicule it in a movie goes beyond disrespectful. .

[Relbeek Einre]

Trigger... how do you know whether the movie was disgusting or what its content was if you never saw it?

Congratulations, you just made yourself look like a blind dittohead.

[Atira]

Dd : Continue to throw a temper tantrum all you want to. Add more names calling to the long list you already have used. Continue to try to control, degrade, harass and insult me if you want. You can make a fist and threaten to beat me to a pulp until i tell the story your way.

Will you feel better ? Probably.
Will it change the facts ? Nope.
See the world from inside a closet if you want to.
I stand on my word. I walked it. It is the truth.

[Relbeek Einre]

Are you sure you reside in Canada, not Africa, Atira? Because you seem to be living in de Nile.

[Gutofsouls]

drak is just a stuck up american who thinks the states is better then any other country fuckin american's are their stuck up ways thinking they are the shit

[Relbeek Einre]

Ddrak's Australian, bunghole.

[Atira]

Thanks for the links Dd. Here it is in black and white.

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack010916/16_week-sun.html
Another employee will also make a final phone call. Cantor vice-president Ralph Gerhardt calls his parents in Toronto within minutes of the impact.
"A bomb or a plane hit the building," Gerhardt tells his father, Hans. "I'm okay. We're going to evacuate."
He is calling from the 106th floor. They will not hear from him again.

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSWorldTrade0109/tor3.html
"The business day started at 8:30, and within 15 minutes of most people arriving at work, TV screens around the offices began showing the horror," he said.

In the heart of Toronto's financial district on Bay St., terrified and bewildered employees spilled into the plazas and onto sidewalks after they were given the option to go home, but no official order to evacuate.

reading further on in those articles you will notice the the TXE was closed after the second plane hit thats before 9:30am......and that by 11 am, downtown was already a ghost town.

Atira

[Arkaron]

US senator Kennedy and Lora Bush were addressing the nation at 9:35, and our buildings were already empty, and people going home, BEFORE the first crash.

(all numbers and citations from the 9/11 Commission Report, sitting on my desk at the moment)

American Airlines Flight 11 hit the North WTC at 8:46am.
United Airlines Flight 175 hit the South WTC at 9:03am.

Our core was empty before the first building (what ever twoer no# it was) fell to the ground. I have first hand knowledge about peoples movements out of the city that morning, from 8:50ish to 10:45 am.

Your second statement I believe could be true. It's certainly easier to think clearly when the building you work in isn't filled with smoke with multiple stories on fire isn't it?

The first statement? No way. Most Americans in a collective sense, especially New Yorkers had no idea what was happening until the second plane hit. The only people in the world with the foreknowledge of what would happen that day were a) hijackers b) passengers/flight attendants.

Nobody here is bashing the Canadian government for those who did fly in to assist with the relief efforts in New York, but the claim that you were evacuating buildings PRIOR to the first plane hitting is insane.

I can understand people in other large buildings and monuments being worried about further attacks, because nobody knew the extent of what was happening until it was over. I'd be interested to hear from the west coasters on this board--I remember my reaction was very different as I got into an argument with my mother about sending my sister to school or not. Our schools were open, but large buildings in downtown Portland were closed, if I remember right.

[jookkor]

I dont know anything about evacuating buildings in Toronto, I dont know who to believe and its irrelevant anyways. Perhaps people were already on alert due to threats coming from Bin Ladden, maybe not. Maybe buildings were evacuated for a completely unrelated reason that has been forgotton in the Long shadow of what happened in New York.
All I do know is that anybody who talks in absolutes about any military on earth, and holds %100 faith in press releases is talking out of their ass.

[Atira]

Ack,
Where did you get this from ? ...sorry dont know how to do the quote box thingy on here , but this is a cut and paste from your post.

"but the claim that you were evacuating buildings PRIOR to the first plane hitting is insane."

Also , if you have a copy of the 'commission report' could you tell me please if it is available online for anyone to look at? In it's entirerty ? Or has it been audited, and only selected information is made public. Id like to see how it compares to information on this side of the border.

Thanks much
Atira

[Arkaron]

Well, I do know how to make the boxy thing, where you said:

US senator Kennedy and Lora Bush were addressing the nation at 9:35, and our buildings were already empty, and people going home, BEFORE the first crash.

That is you, right? That means you're saying that you evaccuated your buildings BEFORE the first plane hit the World Trade Center, which is BULLSHIT. I'd believe you if you said that people were given the option to leave AFTER the first plane hit, but here you are saying that you know of people who were asked/told to evaccuate BEFORE the first crash.

Id like to see how it compares to information on this side of the border.

The times the planes hit, and when orders were issued on either side of the border to evaccuate don't change the point that there is no fucking way anybody in the Canadian government knew about the attacks BEFORE they happened to the point of giving workers the option to leave buildings of similar size and function as WTC. You are confusing 'prior' and 'during'.

I'm not sure if there is a copy of the commission report online. I am pretty sure the 9/11 Commission isn't fucking around. While there are images and footage of the attacks available in other countries that I would rather not see (this from a friend who spent part of her summer near Saudi Arabia) the timing of events is the same.

If you want, feel free to compare it to what's on your side of the border. The times the planes hit will be exactly the same, I'm betting. But who cares? I'm sure it will just add more amunition to your self righteous brand of Canadian nationalism.

[Atira]

Let me clarify the term "crashed" in the sentence you just provided. It refers to the 'crashing of a building to the ground' , as in topple, keel, plunge, crumble. It does not refer to a hit, as in a plane hit, as in striking, purposely flying into.

Atira

[Arkaron]

Hah. That must be one of those 'cultural differences' being pointed out.

[jookkor]

of course there is a fucking way the canadian government knew about the crashes before they happened, there is a fucking way that any government knew about it. But hopefully the only people who did actually know was a small isolated group.
Stop speaking in absolutes about stuff we dont know about. instead of saying "atira your for sure %100 wrong" say "atira in my opinion the words that you have typed seem retarded when they are arranged exactly as you have done so, please shake the etch a sketch before I get a headache"

[Ddrak]

Atira,

I'm not throwing a temper tantrum. I called you precisely one name, which I thought fit perfectly well. I laid down verifiable facts while you laid down vague memories. The only way you are being insulted is by your persistant changing of your story and weird selective memories.

Of course I'm not going to threaten you physically. What sort of paranoia do you have going there? I mean really? Why on earth would I do that? Do you really feel so threatened by the facts I'm presenting that you are likening them to a physical attack? Get a grip, woman.

So, stop projecting. I'm the one presenting facts, not you. You're the one looking from inside a closet, not me and I'm the one telling truths, not you.

However, look at your reading of the links: "A bomb or a plane hit the building" - this person didn't know what hit the building. Certainly had no idea it was terrorism and definitely gave no information that Canadians should evacuate.

Your second link you completely fail to show any sort of english comprehension at all. TV images started showing around 8:50am (go look at the CNN, CBC and any other transcript you want). The Stock Exchange *was* closed after the second plane hit - about two hours after. No time is attached to the "option to go home", and Toronto isn't like a ghost town until 11am - well after the buildings actually fell, let alone the second plane hitting.

The final telling part of your denial is the comparison of these two quotes:

By the time the second tower in the US was hit, Toronto was evactuating

Where did you get this from ? ...sorry dont know how to do the quote box thingy on here , but this is a cut and paste from your post.

"but the claim that you were evacuating buildings PRIOR to the first plane hitting is insane."

Your initial statement that I responded to claimed Toronto was evacuating BEFORE the second plane hit. Now you're blasting Arkaron for quoting you on it and pretending you didn't say it.

I'm sorry Atira, but your story that Toronto was evacuating BEFORE the second plane hit, BEFORE 9:03am, BEFORE the world even know it was terrorism is 100% invented bullshit. There's no other word for it. You're wrong. Deal with it.

Now, if you want to claim that Toronto was evacuating, at least in part, before the towers *fell* then you're on much stronger ground. However that is not what you said and not what you vigorously defended in your responses to me. Feel free to admit your initial statement was just wrong and that what you really meant was the towers falling if you like - might save you some face.


Jook,

Atira is 100% wrong in her statement that Toronto was evacuating before the second plane hit. That isn't a matter of opinion, that is a matter of recorded fact. Cope.

Dd

[Ddrak]

Oh yeah - the 9/11 commission report? You do know how to use Google right, because the link was, well, any of the top 15. Here's the original source though:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

Dd

[jookkor]

Cope with what I dont even like Toronto? What I am trying to say is that everybody is speaking in absolutes which is odd since I doubt anybody here is omnipresent. Perhaps as I mentioned buildings were evacuated for an unrelated reason and Atira is Confused. Perhaps buildings were absolutely not evacuated and Atira is still confused. Perhaps Canada trained the terrorists and sent the planes, and then lied about their readiness to conform to conventional information. Anyways I dont really think you can say whats a fact and what isnt when one lie or ommision or mistake could easily become the truth.

[Ddrak]

Jook,

You've gone off into weirdness now. Come back to this planet!

Dd