Propagandagate takes an interesting turn...

[Relbeek Einre]

I'm pretty darn sure you did make the argument of the SBV that there was no evidence of collusion between them and the Bush campaign.

He has called me a fool, a hypocrite, and numerous other derisve adjectives.

No, he said you were playing the fool - implicit in that is the assertion that he knows you are not, actually, the fool - and he asked you if you were being a hypocrite. However, I found your tone dismissive and condescending and refusing to acknowledge any point he made (perhaps so you didn't have to try to refute them) - "Senatorial" may be a more apt description of your conduct than you thought.

But getting back to our point - you may not be aware of how state politics works, so let me break it down for you.

If you're a huge donor to a state political party, and the governor of that state is in the same party, then that is prima facie evidence that you're hobnobbing with the governor. It simply doesn't work any other way. I take the status of these boys within GOP circles as convincing evidence they rubbed elbows with Governor George W. Bush. So this establishes personal contact between Bush, and more importantly Bush's Texas inner circle, and these guys. It would be highly odd for guys throwing around the kind of money these guys were NOT being given the governor's ear, and those contacts continuing when the governor became President.

It's also clear that GOPUSA was formed to support the neocon agenda and the Republican Party. Again, also unlikely to have been done with no consultation with those persons with whom they certainly have contacts.

Guckert clearly got attention and access far above his station. McClellan and Bush didn't need him for softballs- they could have gone to the reporter from the Washington Times or FOX News for that. They clearly wanted more than just softballs or they wouldn't have bothered with this clown. But he got access and he got attention. Which tells me that they knew who this guy was and that they could count on him to say things they wanted to get out but couldn't say themselves.

Is it all proof? No. But it certainly doesn't pass the smell test. And this alone is certainly enough to say much more than "there's no evidence of collusion." And certainly the more recent revelations of a possible connection between Guckert and Karl "Satan" Rove only add to this.

In short, Chants, you either don't understand the implications of what Ddrak has been tellig you or you are ignoring them.

[Relbeek Einre]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/ ... 5050.shtml

Another interesting perspective.

[Burz]

http://www.cbsnews

Stopped reading.

[Partha]

It's a stretch to assume you ever started, Burz.

[Burz]

Only the pictures.

[Chants Evensong]

Relbeek stated:

But getting back to our point - you may not be aware of how state politics works, so let me break it down for you.

If you're a huge donor to a state political party, and the governor of that state is in the same party, then that is prima facie evidence that you're hobnobbing with the governor. It simply doesn't work any other way. I take the status of these boys within GOP circles as convincing evidence they rubbed elbows with Governor George W. Bush.

Here is your theory. Political donations means access. Access means hobnobbing and rubbing shoulders. Hobnobbing and rubbing shoulders means being part of Bush's inner circle. Therefore, Gannon was a plant.

The linchpin of your theory assumes that GOPUSA and its members bought thier way up the state republican food chain with politcal donations. Here is your problem. You and Ddrak have not even bothered to provide any evidence that the GOPUSA has made political donations or that any of its board members have, much less proven that these donations led to influence GOPUSA has not made any. Bobby Eberle has not made any. You are simply just lying about it or are so biased you see no reson to prove it.

This entire Gannongate thing has moved from one discredited theory to the next. The daily pass is not that hard to get. There is no Plame connection. GOPUSA was not a big time player and donor. Gannon did not have unfettered access to the White House.

Now we have Dotty Lynch's editorial confabulating a connection between Rove and Gannon. But once you take all her derision out of her theory, one is left with the impression that Gannon was an actual reporter, with actual sources, doing actual reporting. That's called "going off message."

ANd that's the problem. Gannongate is everywhere at once, and no where at all. If one theory fails, another one comes up. No Plame connection? Then Talon News/GOPUSA bought thier access. No proof of political donations? The Rove and Gannon have a connection.

Are we going to be able to uncover anything about Gannon besides his penis?

[Relbeek Einre]

You are simply just lying about it or are so biased you see no reson to prove it.

More of that Senatorial civility, I see.

I'm working, so I don't have time to follow up on the Eberle connection right now. If Ddrak doesn't get to it for me, I'll get to it later. Apologies for not having time right now.

[Chants Evensong]

That's ok Relbeek. I already did the research a couple of days ago.

Bobby Eberle is the CEO of GOPUSA. Another Eberle, Bruce, owns a large direct-mailing business in Northern Virgina. Bruce's business focuses on conservative fund-raising and raises a lot of money. Bruce also bought an older website from Bobby. Bruce and Bobby are not blood relatives. Other than sharing the same last name as a big conservative fundraiser, Bobby has little to nothing to do with raising funds for Republicans.

[Partha]

Except for in-kind contributions like disseminating press releases for the White House unedited.

[Chants Evensong]

By Jove, Partha! You've cracked the Gannon case wide open!

Talon News actually repeated the statements made in widely available White House press releases. This revelation positively crackles with collusion and high-octane corruption! Genius!

Disseminating the contents of a press release? How dare they! Sheesh, Partha, you'll have Talon news acting like a real news organization in no time!

[Partha]

I'm guessing the Senator you refer to when you say 'Senatorial' would be Tailgunner Joe.

[Chants Evensong]

"Tailgunner" Joe? You mean the infamous Senator who spread a wild and ever-changing story of conspiracy and corruption at high levels of government?

[Embar Angylwrath]

"Tailgunner" Joe? You mean the infamous Senator who spread a wild and ever-changing story of conspiracy and corruption at high levels of government?

That's Tailgunner John (Kerry)

[Partha]

Why, yes, Chants, that's who you sound like, in tone.

[Relbeek Einre]

Chants:

You forgot a few details:

Eberle's connections to Karl Rove.

Gucket's having gotten his journalism "degree" from Rove's mentor.

Guckert being paid by the Thune campaign in South Dakota to discredit the mainstream media and the Daschle campaign. (Discrediting the mainstream media seems to be a huge goal of the right-wing noise machine, and I find that really disturbing.) In short, more payola, and a very direct connection to the national Republicans.

Ari Fleischer's direct communications with GOPUSA and his own concerns about their journalistic credentials.

The Bushies' gutting of the Clinton Administration's rules for vetting journalists - that they must have Capitol Hill credentials before trying to get White House credentials - which would have prevented Guckert from getting his daily pass.

Talon News' and GOPUSA's having pulled every one of Guckert's articles and the leaders of both refusing to speak to anyone on the matter.

The White House's refusal to speak on the matter, or explain how Guckert got his credentials.

In short, there's too much stonewalling and whitewashing for you to dismiss this as "There's no 'there' there" (note: not a quote, just an approximation of your POV), the Rove connection hasn't even been touched on, Guckert did get payola as a 'journalist', and there's more to come, I'm sure.

[Partha]

One more thing.

His fellow 'reporter' Jimmy Moore is an officer in the Schaumburg (VA) Republican Party.

[Aabe]

One more thing.

His fellow 'reporter' Jimmy Moore is an officer in the Schaumburg (VA) Republican Party.

He got a brother named Mike? That would really be telling.

[Chants Evensong]

Relbeek,

GOPUSA and it's board were not, as you and Ddrak repeatedly claimed despite several requests for proof, big-time donors to the republican party. It's up to you if you want to continue along these lines.

Relbeek alleged:

Eberle's connections to Karl Rove.

Could you please be more specific? Given the time, I can draw a connection between Karl Rove and Adolph Hitler. Without specifics, this allegation means nothing and is too vague to vet.

Relbeek alleged:

Gucket's having gotten his journalism "degree" from Rove's mentor.

Again, plesae be more specific. I am not a mind reader and have no way of knowng how or why you think this allegations helps show Gannon was a plant.

Relbeek alleged:

Guckert being paid by the Thune campaign in South Dakota to discredit the mainstream media and the Daschle campaign. (Discrediting the mainstream media seems to be a huge goal of the right-wing noise machine, and I find that really disturbing.) In short, more payola, and a very direct connection to the national Republicans.

Actually, you have this story wrong. Gannon was not paid by the Thune campaign. However, he did use Lauck and Van Beek as a source for a couple of stories negative to Daschle. One of these stories showed that Daschle attempted to claim residency in Washingtion, D.C. for tax purposes, a situation which may have disqualified him from running for congress from South Dakota. Another story argued some connection between Daschle and a journalist because they shared college roots.

Lauck and Vanbeek were bloggers who sometime in early 2004 became paid consultants for the Thune campaign. Lauck received $27,000. Van Beek received $8,000.

Lauck and Van Beek were part of a larger controvery concerning money, bloggers, and proper distance between the two. Kos, the epicenter for Gannongate, was not cited for close ties to big time fund raisers for democrats. It was cited for actually being a big time fundraiser.

Dana Milbank, a reporter from the Washington Post, gave a recent interview to Kos in an attempt to support the very dubious assertion that Gannon had a Hard pass. Kos has since backed off this notion. Seems like Milbank was trying to press a story he could not get passed his editor. But what is more to the purpose, if must draw negative inferences about reporters operating in cahoots with fundraisers, Milbank appears to be a much greater offender than Gannon.

Gannon's connection to the Thune campaign actually demonstrates nothing more than perhaps the single example of him being an actual reporter. He had sources from the inside, got information from them, and published it. That's what reporters do.

Relbeek alleges:

Ari Fleischer's direct communications with GOPUSA and his own concerns about their journalistic credentials.

This allegation is true, but Relbeek casts it in a false light. Here is the true story.

E&P contacted Ari Fleisher for an interview regarding Gannon. In that Interview Ari stated that he stopped calling on Gannon because he was concerned about his connection to GOPUSA. Ari was concerned that GOPUSA was connected to the Republican Party. Eberle and Ari talked about this connection. Ari determined that there was no real connection and then started calling on Gannon again.

What this episode shows is that Ari had no idea who or what GOPUSA was, thereby severely discounting the notion that GOPUSA was a prearranged press puppet of the White House. In other words, it shows the opposite of what Relbeek wants it to.

Relbeek alleged:

The Bushies' gutting of the Clinton Administration's rules for vetting journalists - that they must have Capitol Hill credentials before trying to get White House credentials - which would have prevented Guckert from getting his daily pass.

OK. This is new. I also think it is false. But even if true, it shows nothing.

If indeed the Bush Administration lowered the bar on daily passes, they lowered the bar for everyone, including Russell Mohbiker, a leftie regular of the White House press room consistently asking hostile questions of the administration. Russell attended press conferences on a daily pass.

Relbeek alleged:

Talon News' and GOPUSA's having pulled every one of Guckert's articles and the leaders of both refusing to speak to anyone on the matter.

Agreed. That was dumb. Fortunately, you can still cache them through google. To wit:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:7a ... ency&hl=en

Relbeek alleged:

Talon News' and GOPUSA's having pulled every one of Guckert's articles and the leaders of both refusing to speak to anyone on the matter.

False. At the top of my head, I know that Scott McClellon has already spoken on this matter.

[Aabe]

Could you please be more specific? Given the time, I can draw a connection between Karl Rove and Adolph Hitler. Without specifics, this allegation means nothing and is too vague to vet.
.

Does he lose too??

[Relbeek Einre]

Misquoted. Heh. But you're right, McClellan spoke:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp ... 1000808705

Great breakdown of things there.

You also have the Lauck and Van Beek thing backwards. They used HIM as their source, not the other way around. Gannon was the source of articles slamming the "MSM" as being pro-Daschle and otherwise smeared. The original story was mid-November in the National Journal, but http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/ ... 5050.shtml plays mention to it.

According to a November 17 posting on South Dakota Politics – a site that Van Beek, who has become a staffer for now-Sen. Thune, has bequeathed to Lauck – "Jeff Gannon, whose reportage had a dramatic impact on the Daschle v. Thune race (his story about Sen. Daschle signing a legal document claiming to be a D.C. resident was published nearly the same day Thune began to run an ad showing Daschle saying, "I'm a D.C. resident) has written an analysis of the debacle."

Daschle aides told Roll Call, "This guy (Gannon) became the dumping ground for opposition research." The connections are so strong that there is an FEC challenge which could be a test case on the limits of the use of the Internet in federal campaigns.

Gannon also had Thune on his radio show "Jeff Gannon's Washington," and the White House correspondent for Talon became touted as the "resident D.C. expert on South Dakota politics" by the bloggers.

It's clear that he was either the patsy of Van Beek (nice name!) and Lauck or was conspiring with them on this. You're right the money went to Lauck and Van Beek, but this connection needs to be examined closely for any quid pro quo, because it reeks of it.

The article also has some details of the Rove connection, but there's more. I point out this Salon article: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/ ... re_gannon/

Additionally, Guckert attended the invitation-only White House press Christmas parties in 2003 and 2004, and last holiday season, in a personal posting on GOPUSA, Eberle thanked Karl Rove for his "assistance, guidance, and friendship."

As to the what you think is false about the change from Clinton's policy, I present again the Salon article: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/ ... re_gannon/

This is not how the White House press office has traditionally worked. "When I was there we didn't let political operatives in. It was completely contrary to what the press room should be used for," says Joe Lockhart, who served as White House press secretary to President Clinton during his second term. Asked what would have happened if a reporter from a clearly partisan operation, say "Democrats Today," had requested a White House press pass, Lockhart said that if the chief of the Democratic National Committee were attending an event at the White House, then perhaps the Democrats Today reporter might be allowed in for that one day. "But to be admitted as a reporter and sit in a chair and act like a reporter" for months on end the way Guckert did? "No," said Lockhart, "that's not within the realm of what [is] proper."

Unless you seek to call Lockhart a liar, Bush's administration did severely soften the criteria for admission to the press room.

Just how blatantly the White House press office looked the other way in regard to Guckert and his dubious status as a legitimate reporter comes into stark relief when examining his attempt to secure a similar press pass to cover Capitol Hill. Guckert submitted his application in December 2003 to the Standing Committee of Correspondents, a press group in charge of handing out credentials. In April 2004, the committee denied Guckert's request. Writing to Guckert, committee chairman Jim Drinkard outlined three clear deficiencies in Guckert's application:

1) "Committee guidelines require that on-line publications 'must charge a market rate fee for subscription or access, or carry paid advertising at current market rates.' You have not demonstrated to the committee's satisfaction that Talon News has any paid subscribers, that paid client newspapers publish Talon News stories, or that it is supported by advertising."

2) "The application for accreditation to the press galleries states that 'members of the press shall not engage in lobbying or paid advertising, publicity, promotion, work for any individual, political party, corporation, organization, or agency of the Federal Government.' Talon News has not demonstrated to the satisfaction of the committee that there is a separation from GOPUSA."

3) "Gallery rules and the application state that the principal income of correspondents must be obtained from news correspondence intended for publication in newspapers or news services. The committee feels that paying a single reporter a 'stipend' does not meet the intent of the rule."

The White House, in contrast, said that as long as Talon News or GOPUSA "existed," Guckert was free to attend its press briefings. Yet, in the past, a reporter seeking a permanent White House press pass has had to first secure credentials to cover Capitol Hill. Without those, the White House would not submit the application for a background check. But even though Guckert failed to secure Capitol Hill credentials, the White House waved him into press briefings for nearly two years using what's called a day pass. Those passes are designed for temporary use by out-of-town reporters who need access to the White House, not for indefinite use by reporters who flunk the Capitol Hill test.

To obtain a day pass during the Clinton administration, a reporter "had to make the case as to why that day was unique and why [he] had to cover the White House from inside the gates instead of outside," Lockhart says.

It's also false to say there's no connection between Bruce and Bobby Eberle. Though they may have no relation, http://www.millionsofamericans.com/ which is Bruce's site shows an alliance with Bobby.

There's a lot more to this story than you claim, Chants, and I think we need to watch it develop. I'm waiting to hear the White House explain why it could be so security-crazy and yet allow a man like Gannon within a knife throw of the President, for starters.

I could go on, but I need to work.