Pry-bit skool antics

[Aabe]

You're dead wrong Beek. And you have plenty of people posting on this topic who have had practical experience with private schools telling you so.

You speak that as if I haven't, Embar. Private schools are wildly divergent in their practices - just as public schools are, only moreso. There are some private schools who operate as altruistically as you mention ... there are plenty that don't.

It is a truly rare private school that will accept a discipline case from a public school.

If you believe that it is the schools job to teach children dicilpline, I would agree with you Beek. But ask a teacher how many dicipline problem children they can manage in a class of 25 before the rest of the class suffers lost teaching time? Everytime a teacher is inturupted on a line of thinking, the teacher has to then deal with the child individually, then has to settle the class, then tries to reestablish the original point. Very costly education wise. But I do not agree that normal school should be required to teach full classes and deal with dicipline problem children at the same time.

Perhaps dicipline problems are parental responsibilites and in the case the parents wont deal with it, they need a special program or school that focuses on children with dicipline problems. Once the child is in control, then maybe they try to reintroduce them back to the normal school.

[Relbeek Einre]

I have no problem with that Aabe. But keep in mind a private school can simply go "You're expelled. Back to public skool with j00." The public school is required to deal with such children, and that money has to come from somewhere.

[Aabe]

I know, the public school is fettered. I am not pleased about that. In Washington State 10 yrs ago they listed the prioities of the education system. No 1 Create universal citizens, 2. Teach tolerance. 3. Quality education.

Number 3 was to educate. How in blazes are teachers allowed to seriously teach given this? You either change the public ed, or end around and private ed. And the teachers union and every other high level person in the education get very unexcited about anything using the "C" word if it might effect their department.

[Partha]

Indeed, I know about private schools, Embar - there's many in my school district, at all levels of education. Problem children aren't being accepted into them in any great numbers - in fact, they are now planning an 'alternative' school specifically for problem students in the public school system. And one thing about private schools that no one touches on - they're not known for embracing minorities or the poor.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002013.pdf

In 1999–2000, 77 percent of all private school students were White, compared
with 63 percent of all public school students (figure 3). The private
school sector as a whole had lower proportions of Black and Hispanic students
than the public school sector as a whole, and no difference was detected
between the sectors in the proportion of Asian/Pacific Islander students.

Indeed, 1 out of every 7 private schools has ZERO minorities in it. None. Name a single public school that says the same.

Virtually all public schools (99 percent)
had students eligible for subsidized lunches, about twice the percentage for
private schools (49 percent) (table 6). Among schools participating in the
subsidized lunch program, 42 percent of students at public schools and 10
percent at private schools, on average, were eligible.

Eligible for free lunches, by the way, = increased chance they're poor.

Now, you want to tell me that giving a family $250 will make these schools an option? They are under NO obligation to take anyone they don't want to. They're not clamoring for more students NOW.

[Aabe]

Now, you want to tell me that giving a family $250 will make these schools an option? They are under NO obligation to take anyone they don't want to. They're not clamoring for more students NOW.

Is $250 all the vouchers are giving these days??

[Aabe]

Indeed, 1 out of every 7 private schools has ZERO minorities in it. None. Name a single public school that says the same..

Heh heh you aint got money greedy enough private schools in your district yet.

[Akhbarali]

You're dead wrong Beek. And you have plenty of people posting on this topic who have had practical experience with private schools telling you so.

It is a truly rare private school that will accept a discipline case from a public school.

That was not my experience at all. Quite the opposite with the Catholic School I attended, we had several students that were there precisely because of their discipline problems in Public Schools. My anecdotal guess is that there are more kids in private schools that were expelled from public schools than there are kids in public schools that were expelled from private schools. I am curious as to how you can make sure definitive statmens as, "It is a truly rare private school that will accept a discipline case from a public school." You just making this stuff up or can you support it in any meaningful way?

Akhbar

[Relbeek Einre]

My only real experience is with the private schools in my vicinity - Cretin/Derham Hall, Visitation, Nativity, St. Paul Academy and Summit School, Minnehaha Academy, Breck. And I knew kids in my public schools growing up who had been expelled or denied re-enrollment in each of those schools who wound up back in the public school system. And Nativity and Visitation were both Catholic.

[Partha]

Now, you want to tell me that giving a family $250 will make these schools an option? They are under NO obligation to take anyone they don't want to. They're not clamoring for more students NOW.

Is $250 all the vouchers are giving these days??

Well, I misquoted your $270. Now explain to us why they're going to start taking a mass influx of public school kids if vouchers become the norm, instead of snarking.

[Klast Brell]

I'm jumping in a bit late on this one, but I can speak from personal experience. I was kicked out of a private catholic school in second grade. The reasons were poor grades and discipline problems. ( I didn’t get in fights. I would get bored and talk to the other kids or make my own toys out of school supplies)

[Aabe]

Now, you want to tell me that giving a family $250 will make these schools an option? They are under NO obligation to take anyone they don't want to. They're not clamoring for more students NOW.

Is $250 all the vouchers are giving these days??

Well, I misquoted your $270. Now explain to us why they're going to start taking a mass influx of public school kids if vouchers become the norm, instead of snarking.

$270 is what the school in my home town charges. It's really all the market will bear there, and requires volunteer help from time to time to make ends meet, its a poor community.

I would guess vouchers would be for more than $600 per month, that probably varies from area to area. I am guessing my local public school gets much more than $270 per month per child. Once there is enough money per child via vouchers. School for profit would become more likely. And its the number of pupils that increase the revenue stream. You would be shooting yourself in the foot to turn people away.

Private schools currently have to convice people to spend a lot of money to pull their kids out of public school (which is free) to attend theirs. They HAVE to have something worth a lot of money to make that happen. So some are selective on wealth, some on academic achievment and some on religious affiliation. (I want my kid raised in a Catholic school like I was!!)
If vouchers paid well, the sale to get your kid from public is WAY easier. Now all you have to offer is safer environment or more likely to go to college. The market moves from only the people with extra money to everyone in the country. If the poor hispanic family voucher is as good as the engineers kids voucher, why be picky? As long as you can provide a good education and the parents are pleased enough with the results to keep them there.

If its a named school that draws by it's prestige or some reputation. Then they will obviously be stupid picky. But like the school my sister uses, they take anyone that ponys up the cash, has kids that show up washed and clothes in good repair and will follow the rules.

In this country, money makes the world go round. You want something to happen, make it profitable and it will happen. You just better be there to oversight if ways to abuse it are possible/likely.

The biggest down sides I can see are 2 fold.

It will mean the death of public schools if they are not unfettered with civil duties and a house cleaning of the many high paid "directors of programs most people never heard of" are not done to each school. It is unfair to expect the public schools to compete with their hands tied and weights around their necks, the way it is now.

The second down side is the shake up in teachers careers. Many people are baseing retirement on years of service to public schools. I would expect the School for fee to select and pay well, good teachers, but untill the market shakes things down a bit, tons of schools will open and many will not survive.

Those schools that try to hire "Cheap" teachers will find they dont draw much business or are able to keep their staff.

In the end I think teachers salaries will be good and the better the teacher you are the better your pay will be. But as with any new industry, it will intially have its share of abusers and incompetent people. Until a shake out is complete, its going to be really hard on teachers and probably mess with kids progression that initailly get in bad schools.

Sadly, this is an end run on the beurocrasy that will NOT cut the overhead fat or unneeded programs that do little or nothing to teach kids. Politically I can't see a way to fix it. And if in fact private schools become the norm there is nothing to guarantee big brother wont start regulating private schools to the point where public ones find themselves today.

But for today, my sister has 2 daughters that didnt get pregnant, in college doing well and a son that is doing stuff I didnt do in school till I was about 4 yrs older than he is now. People from 4 towns around the area drive up to 40 miles each way to get their kids in this dumpy little school, that is sponsored by some small church I can't even remember the name of.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Indeed, I know about private schools, Embar - there's many in my school district, at all levels of education. Problem children aren't being accepted into them in any great numbers - in fact, they are now planning an 'alternative' school specifically for problem students in the public school system. And one thing about private schools that no one touches on - they're not known for embracing minorities or the poor.

Simply not true. The vast majority of private schools (which are religion based) embrace both the minorities and the poor. Its part of most religions' cornerstones, and they incorporate into their educational system.

Catholic schools, which represent a large percentage of religious based private schools, do not turn kids away because they can't pay the tuition. Nor do they turn them away because of the amount of melanin in their skin.

And dude, you gave a quote that said 77% of the private school kids in 2000 were white.

http://aspe.os.dhhs.gov/hsp/97trends/PF1-4.htm

You'll notice in that link that the percentage population of white children under the age of 18 in 2000 was 78%, which mirrors the percentage of white kids in private schools, so I hardly think that private schools are discriminatory or have a disporportionate amount of whites.

[Partha]

You give projections. I'll give hard evidence, thanks. The report I linked (had you, once again, bothered to link it) shows that whites are less than 70% of the public school system and 77% of the private school system. And you can talk about 'the vast majority' of private schools, but yet that's a sad rejoinder when you consider NO public school is segregated.

Oh, and had you read the report OR my post, you'd have seen no accusations against Catholic schools about racism, since the report specifically states that Catholic schools most closely among all private schools mirrors public school ethnicity data, and since I didn't say a goddamned word about Catholic schools as a seperate entity.

So, you can't read, you don't listen, and you give bad data. Three strikes, you're out.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Partha -

How do you support your statement that private schools are discriminatory when the data shows that across the nation 78% of kids are white, and private schools have an enrollment of white kids equal to 77%?

[Relbeek Einre]

Mmm, selective data.

Embar, I believe you that neither race nor poverty are factors in most Catholic schools accepting students - and bully for them. Catholic charities have much to offer, and are a help to the community.

That doesn't alter the FACT that in many of them, they throw out discipline cases and don't deal with LD children - two things public schools cannot do.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Mmm, selective data.

Embar, I believe you that neither race nor poverty are factors in most Catholic schools accepting students - and bully for them. Catholic charities have much to offer, and are a help to the community.

That doesn't alter the FACT that in many of them, they throw out discipline cases and don't deal with LD children - two things public schools cannot do.

Hold up Beek...

What about my data is selective? It's from the census reports. Partha made the accusation that private schools turn away minorities, and to back his assetion he stated that whites dominated private school enrollment by a whopping 77%. What he failed to understand is that white dominate the population as a whole by 78%. So therefore whites aren't favored in private schools.

Do you agree with statement Beek.. that on the whole, private schools do not discriminate based on minority status?

[Relbeek Einre]

Your data is selective because it completely bypasses slash ignores the little bit of Partha's data showing 70% of public schoolkids are white, compared to 78% of private school kids.
The discrepancy has to come from somewhere.

I'm not saying it's necessarily to do with discrimination, because I could see a number of factors at play. Certainly it would be a tautology to say there are some private schools that discriminate racially; it would also be factualy accurate to state the data shows that a majority of private schools aren't.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Let me be more specific then Beek. Based on the fact that 77% of private school kids are white, and 78% of the total population (kids, ages 1-18) is white, would you say that on the whole, private schools don't appear to be discriminating based on minority status?

[Relbeek Einre]

I would say the data is incomplete.

It doesn't show how many of those kids are school-age, and how many of the school-age kids in general are in school, then the breakdown by race of kids in any school.

[Aabe]

Let me be more specific then Beek. Based on the fact that 77% of private school kids are white, and 78% of the total population (kids, ages 1-18) is white, would you say that on the whole, private schools don't appear to be discriminating based on minority status?

Heh heh actually, I could see a scenario where some schools taking blacks only, some taking whites only and some hispanics only. The percentage of private school attendies vs race numbers could be perfectly matched over all with population and yet all the schools could be discriminating 100%. I have heard of black only colleges, so there is at least a bit of a precedent.

Somedays ya just gotta love statistics.