I'm appalled

[Embar Angylwrath]

Correct Dd. To me, the right of a parent to exercise control over a child is a completely different topic from abortion.

[Akhbarali]

The parent should sue the shit out of the school, clinic and grandparent and let the courts decide who should be paying a large settlement. The behavior of the school was grossly negligent, the grandparent criminal and the clinic despicable enough that a civil jury might just slap them around out of disgust. Even though I support abortion rights pretty much across the board and although the clinic probably didn't do anything legally "wrong" the refusal to pass along a message to an extremely concerned parent is sickening to me. All three parties are probably glad I won't be sitting on that jury.

Akhbar

[Embar Angylwrath]

Akbar

Looks like the clinic did exactly what they were supposed to do. If Illinois law views pregant minors as "emancipated" for purposes of making decisions on medical procedures, then the clinic is probably prohibited from releasing any informtion to another party without the written consent of the patient (new HIPAA laws).

Again, an example of when doing what is right conflicts with doing what's legal.

[Ddrak]

Embar's probably right though the clinic could have done a lot more that was well within the letter of the law to avoid things going down this way. After all, they must have known at that time she was a potential kidnapping victim and quite possibly being coerced into requesting the medical procedure.

Last I looked, clinics aren't required to perform procedures the very instant they are requested.

Dd

[Akhbarali]

Akbar

Looks like the clinic did exactly what they were supposed to do. If Illinois law views pregant minors as "emancipated" for purposes of making decisions on medical procedures, then the clinic is probably prohibited from releasing any informtion to another party without the written consent of the patient (new HIPAA laws).

Again, an example of when doing what is right conflicts with doing what's legal.

I totally agree Embar. That said, civil juries have a habit of going beyond the letter of the law.

Akhbar

[Relbeek Einre]

However, preventing the message from being passed has to be NOT in accordance with the law.

[Embar Angylwrath]

However, preventing the message from being passed has to be NOT in accordance with the law.

I find myself in the very macabre position of defending the patient's right to privacy, and opposing the abortion.

No person, if considered an adult in the eyes of the law, should be required to divulge any information pertaining to decisions they make in the area of health care for themselves. The clinic should have disclosed no information to a third party, if the clinic was treating an "adult".

Having said that, I think that person made the wrong decision in having the abortion. I also think the Illinois law on minors making adult decisions for their personal healthcare soley because they are pregnant is misguided. Under that law, any minor, even a retarded one, can act as an emancipated adult if they become pregnant.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Commenting on the hypothetical question posed, I would have great issue with a parent forcing their child to abort a fetus the child wanted to keep. I think, converse to a parent who forces a child to carry to term, the parents should have no responsibility to the baby in the case the child wanted to keep it.
Can parents force their child to put up a baby for adoption? I would say, in a case where the child wanted to keep a baby the parents wanted aborted, the most reasonable compromise is to put the baby up for adoption. Other than that, I could see the baby being placed in foster care until the child's 18th birthday, at which point she can take custody.
This is a bit messier than the parents wanting their daughter to keep a fetus she wants to abort, simply because the question of what to do with the baby is a bit more intricate. If the parents of the pregnant girl don't want the baby in their house, what gets done to resolve that?

[Relbeek Einre]

Embar, the patient wanted to pass a message to her mother. There's no reason to disallow that.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Embar, the patient wanted to pass a message to her mother. There's no reason to disallow that.

Agreed.

[Syeni Soulslasher MK6]

I would say, in a case where the child wanted to keep a baby the parents wanted aborted, the most reasonable compromise is to put the baby up for adoption.

WTF are you smoking? Compermise? Its not the parents decision....

You want that car? Ok you can make the down payment to get it custom built "you own it while its in the factory" but when it hits the lot you cant finance it so someone else get it and your out what you put into it.... Ohhh Ohhhhh sign me up.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

WTF are you smoking? Compermise? Its not the parents decision....

You want that car? Ok you can make the down payment to get it custom built "you own it while its in the factory" but when it hits the lot you cant finance it so someone else get it and your out what you put into it.... Ohhh Ohhhhh sign me up.

Then please address this issue.

If the parents of the pregnant girl don't want the baby in their house, what gets done to resolve that?

If the preggo daughter wants to carry the baby because she feels abortion is wrong, she should be willing to do so regardless of wether her parents let her keep it or not. If she wants to keep the baby for herself, but her parents don't want it there (In the home) and would thus force her to put it up for adoption, she can then choose wether she'd prefer the abortion or not.
It's not a situation I'd be comfortable with, as any party involved. Let's hear your suggestions.

[holymackreal]

That would be a violation of the privacy of the patient if it was allowed without her consent. The girl knew her mother was there.....yet apparently only asked the nurses to give her mother a message....not a reqeust to allow her mother in come in. I would think the privacy rights of the patient here is of paramount importance.

Not when the patient is 14 years old.

[Syeni Soulslasher MK6]

If the preggo daughter wants to carry the baby because she feels abortion is wrong, she should be willing to do so regardless of wether her parents let her keep it or not. If she wants to keep the baby for herself, but her parents don't want it there (In the home) and would thus force her to put it up for adoption, she can then choose wether she'd prefer the abortion or not.
It's not a situation I'd be comfortable with, as any party involved. Let's hear your suggestions.

Um not exactly, and this FYI is were wellfair moms come from.....

[Syeni Soulslasher MK6]

The problem is it doesn't work that way... By forcing the issue the parents often find them selves on the end of the hate stick, and if the parents push the issu to far socal services tends to get involved (you know somthing about refusing to take care of dependits tends to upset them) and have seen on some occassions were said prego child just ends up in a foster home, at a more understanding relitive or on rare occassions gets state provided houseing (were offten the impreshinable children find the having kids is a meal ticket).

Your argument is with in the parents rights *i think* but they might want to be prepared to lose there child in the process.

I do however agree with (at least I think your trying to say) if they chose to have it, to have to deal with the consequences. I just don't see your segestion as the most tactfull.

Just 3 things for the parent in this situation,
1) Deal with the situation and do what parents should do, and be suportive
2) If you are so against it get used to the idea of not having said kid
3) You try actuly talking to your kids as people and not pets and might actuly see eye to eye and won't be in the situation to start with (OMFG, its too much work can't we just spay them?)

[Aabe]

Natural conseqenses are my favorite form of discipline.

Discipline is about teaching not just punishement. Actuallly if your are parenting is just about punishemnt you pretty much are teaching punishment avoidance. Most peoples parenting is a mix of the two. You spank them if they try to run into the street, untill they get old enough to understand what "dangerous" means and how dangerous a street is.

Parents are NOT in the business of being "best friends" of thier children. In the end you probahbly will be a good friend to your child but that may not come till later in some cases, once they understand what a true friend is.

Parents are in the business of teaching their children and stopping them from doing stupid and harmful things.

Parents have to make hard decisions that often get them on the kids "hate list" for a while at least.

If a parent loves thier children, it will show and it will not cost them their kids in the long run. Even though a child will make ugly threats.

Natural consequenses.

First off you make it clear that to keep the baby has natrual consequences. First is that the baby comes first. "Child mom" is untrained and has no support. The baby deserves a mom that knows how to care for it and can provide for it. You then make clear that until "child mom" decides to adopt the baby, she needs to make a safe home, get the child rearing skills the baby deserves from her and become pracitced in running her OWN household (not one subsidized by "child mom's" parents.

If abortion is banned as an option, then "child mom" needs to choose keeping the baby or adoption. "Child mom" now get lots of fun reseach to do as the baby cooks. If they choose to "keep the baby".

They begin taking child raising classes. Most soon realize to be a good parent requires a lot of time and effort. Almost a full time job that proabably is best attempted with 2 people not one.

They get to learn how to run a house hold, they get to read lots about young mothers that struggle for a very long time dirt poor. They get to read and talk with young mothers that have been at it long enough to realize the folly of their ways and to see that these moms have no hope or "hell to pay" if they want a decent career or a better life. Other young mothers that have been at it a while and now see the mistake will hold far more impact on "child mom" than you can and will be your best hope of getting "child mom" to adopt.

They start their own household on a cheap budget. They do not live with mom and dad while cooking the baby They get a job, go to schoold, get an apartment. (The have to figure out how to get the money and stuff they need to starit a household, no fair letting them come home to do laundry).(I know they can invite boys over, but whats gonna happen, they gonna get pregnant?) You also make sure they get a class on prenatal care, the effects of drugs, alcohol and smoking. Also make clear if laws in your state indicate it abuse you will turn them in, if they are doing anything to hurt the baby.

As a parent it is folly to try to make it easier for them to make it on their own, this is a hard part, but they need to learn for themselves that they can or cannot make it alone. They soon learn "Burger King" cashier money doesnt go far and is barely livable, doesn't take much for them to see what a new baby does to the equation, especially when they know you will only babysit one day a week.

They begin taking child raising classes and learn all about not sleeping at night, what it must be like to have a baby crys on and on and on adn on (1 in 10 will be this way), dirty diapers, cleaning up vomit, doing laundry, making a budget, where all that money goes that mom and dad make how they are going to have to make do with MUCH less.

They also get to read about the number of loving couples that have created homes, have good jobs with money and two people to parent any child in their home and that pray every night that someone will make a baby available for them to adopt so they can care for one. Interviews with a few of these kinds of couples are proably not hard to arrange.

A trip to the local college and a review of salaries and careers choices should be explained to them and how much harder and less fun it is to get the training if they have kids at home.

It should be made clear that this is "child mom's" baby and not "child mom's parents baby". So "child mom" gets babysitting one day a week only from grandparents (you). Because the child needs to be raised by its mother not its grandparents. And it should be raised in its own home not living with grandma and grandpa.

Also make it clear that as grandparents your focus will be a higher prioity on the baby than on "child mom" (because the baby can't fend for itself). If "child mom" decides to take the baby to wild parties, host wild parties with the baby present, leaves it home alone, threatens the grandparents in anyway that they should babysit or she will not care for the baby properly. Grandparents out of love for the baby will call in CPS at the drop of a hat. To do otherwise is unloving to the baby.

One trend is for parents to try to pick up the slack for a negligent "child mom". You are doing "child mom" nor the baby any favors. That baby needs new parents as soon as possible, if "child mom" is negligent. It will be one of the hardest things you will do as a parent, but if "child mom" doesnt care for the baby properly, you must do everything in your power to get it in another home that will care for it.

Often single moms keep a baby till the newness wears off and the legal system starts its process. Usually takes 3 yrs. By that time the baby has lost precious develpmental time that can lead to permanent loss of bonding ability, especaiilly in the cases of emtional abandonment. Some people theorize it is a source of our sociopaths.

All of the things I have described take a LOT of work on your part as a parent. But good parenting is hard work. Maybe that sex talk or other life talks will NOT seem so tough.

But all of the above are not meant as punishment. They all are things that should be done to insure "child mom" has a clear understanding of what is coming, what will be expected of her to be a good parent and the information she needs to make the adopt/keep baby choice.

Which ever way "child mom" chooses, you just insured "child mom" was trained and made a decision based on facts not fantacy.

You will have done your child a great service and earned a great deal of respect from them. You treated them as a person, you did what was best for them and you taught them a lot they can use for the rest of their lives.

If you merely "demand" the baby be adopted, then "child mom" doesnt learn the lessons (often get pregnant again) and you may make the hate list for a very long time, like for the rest of your life.