No Intentional Quran Abuse
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Ddrak
- Save a Koala, deport an Australian
- Posts: 17516
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
- Location: Straya mate!
- Contact:
What makes Jecks a real soldier? All those qualities you seem to lack. Honesty, integrity, morality, more intelligence than a neanderthal, the usual things.
You may think you were protecting freedom, but when you come here telling people to STFU because they weren't in the army, telling people the media should be restricted, it it patently obvious that you were protecting something you have little to no understanding of. Like I said - go and read the documents you allege you have sworn to defend.
You may even say you lived in the situation, but if you have then you clearly haven't bothered to understand how it works at all, at least beyond your miniscule portion of the entire conflict. Fact is, your political understanding seems so limited it could easily be written on the back of a postage stamp and the sad part is you are revelling in that ignorance. Like I said - you need to get out and learn what's real because you've no real comprehension.
I have no problems where I am. You are the one expressing discontent at the freedom of the press, the freedom of expression and the freedom of religion that America embraces. You are the one that doesn't even understand the freedoms you think you are defending. You are the one who is content to compare US troops to terrorists. Everything you've said has been against what America stands for, and yet you think I've got the problem? Sorry kid, you're the one who has issues.
Perhaps though, you will point out to me where I said it was "just as wrong for a bitz to sit in a man lap, as it was for out soldiers to be executed on TV". Remember, kid, you're the one who compared the two, not me. I'm the one who told you that your comparison was out of line and insulting to soldiers everywhere. So, it's interesting that someone who is supposedly a soldier would blatantly lie about my actions. Show some honestly and integrity, kid.
When you learn what freedom is, you'll gain the right to talk about it. Until then, it's back to moronland for you!
And thanks for proving me correct when I said "losers like you rarely do". I love being right.
Dd
You may think you were protecting freedom, but when you come here telling people to STFU because they weren't in the army, telling people the media should be restricted, it it patently obvious that you were protecting something you have little to no understanding of. Like I said - go and read the documents you allege you have sworn to defend.
You may even say you lived in the situation, but if you have then you clearly haven't bothered to understand how it works at all, at least beyond your miniscule portion of the entire conflict. Fact is, your political understanding seems so limited it could easily be written on the back of a postage stamp and the sad part is you are revelling in that ignorance. Like I said - you need to get out and learn what's real because you've no real comprehension.
I have no problems where I am. You are the one expressing discontent at the freedom of the press, the freedom of expression and the freedom of religion that America embraces. You are the one that doesn't even understand the freedoms you think you are defending. You are the one who is content to compare US troops to terrorists. Everything you've said has been against what America stands for, and yet you think I've got the problem? Sorry kid, you're the one who has issues.
Perhaps though, you will point out to me where I said it was "just as wrong for a bitz to sit in a man lap, as it was for out soldiers to be executed on TV". Remember, kid, you're the one who compared the two, not me. I'm the one who told you that your comparison was out of line and insulting to soldiers everywhere. So, it's interesting that someone who is supposedly a soldier would blatantly lie about my actions. Show some honestly and integrity, kid.
When you learn what freedom is, you'll gain the right to talk about it. Until then, it's back to moronland for you!
And thanks for proving me correct when I said "losers like you rarely do". I love being right.
Dd
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crimsontide27
- Fellow n00b
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:07 pm
You win at life man, good job for being king of rants, it the only place you ever amount to a hill of shit.
I never said restrict press. 9/10 times they report all the bad shit just for publicty. Im not gonna argue with you anymore, its not worth my time. Your life revolve around rants and a fucking game, nothing else. Anyone can google or askjeeves something and spout off like they know something and are informed.
Until you see how things work, first hand, you sir...simply have ZERO clue how things really work. I speak from experience in the 3rd world, dealing with the very stuff you spout off about. If it doesnt involve a numerical experince number, such as in EQ, EQ2, or WoW, you dont have any. Get out in the world, come back and report to us when you are informed, and not informed from a fucking computer desk.
Your e-peni only extends as far as this rant board goes, no further.
And if Jecks is so much more about " Honesty, integrity, morality, more intelligence than a neanderthal, the usual things.." ...and HAS been overseas...I encourage his imput. I dont know him, I have no doubt he is a grade A individual.
I never said restrict press. 9/10 times they report all the bad shit just for publicty. Im not gonna argue with you anymore, its not worth my time. Your life revolve around rants and a fucking game, nothing else. Anyone can google or askjeeves something and spout off like they know something and are informed.
Until you see how things work, first hand, you sir...simply have ZERO clue how things really work. I speak from experience in the 3rd world, dealing with the very stuff you spout off about. If it doesnt involve a numerical experince number, such as in EQ, EQ2, or WoW, you dont have any. Get out in the world, come back and report to us when you are informed, and not informed from a fucking computer desk.
Your e-peni only extends as far as this rant board goes, no further.
And if Jecks is so much more about " Honesty, integrity, morality, more intelligence than a neanderthal, the usual things.." ...and HAS been overseas...I encourage his imput. I dont know him, I have no doubt he is a grade A individual.
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Ddrak
- Save a Koala, deport an Australian
- Posts: 17516
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
- Location: Straya mate!
- Contact:
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Eidolon Faer
- The Dark Lord of Felwithe
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:25 pm
You've used the whole "why do you WANT the story of Koran abuse to be true?" line more than once in this thread.Trollbait wrote:I have no idea where you got this......are you drunk?
That's one of those "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" attacks. It's simply not a productive thing to discuss, even if the opponent really IS giving you that impression. Imputing such motives to the opposition is political hackery at best, and libel at worst.
While normally I'd be inclined to watch you two duel over it till the cows come home (and I don't own any cows), I was legitimately interested in commenting on the whole "book abuse vs people abuse" aspect of the controversy. It seemed far more interesting to me than watching you grind down Ddrak until Rsak felt compelled to post something inane and break it up, but did not really merit its' own thread.
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Trollbait
Eid .....I was referring to this line....
I never made any inference to a "mythical cabal" of any kind.
When I made the comment "why do you WANT the story of Koran abuse to be true?" it refers only to Relbeek and Partha.......not even Ddrak.......and was trollish in nature. So I have to ask again, where do you get the ineference to the "tin foil" hat position that there is some sort of journalistic konspiracy?
Crimson~
As I said before I know where you are coming from. I have seen good men go down the road you are currently traveling trying to comprehend the incomprehensible. Allow me, an individual who has peered into the Abyss, to give you some advice.
There is only one way to be better than your enemy and that is to adhere to the principles that were laid out by our founders and the men who fought before us and to learn from their mistakes.
I would lay down my life, and gladly, so that the New York Times, Newsweek, USAToday, or any other media outlet could print both the negative and the positive about me and any of my fellow soldiers. If an American serviceman commits an abuse it is the duty of any soldier to be sure that the abuse is known and taken care of. It is the duty of the press to expose those abuses and be sure that justice is carried out.
That is what makes us better than them. We will not allow ourselves to be lowered to the level of a common thug. When you put on the uniform you take upon yourself a solemn duty. Perhaps you have forgotten the creed of an American Soldier...
There are two very important lines in the creed that apply to this instance.
I serve the people of the United States
and
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
How can you serve the American people yet break their laws?
How can you be a guardian of the American way of life and not live it yourself?
Examine yourself closely, Crimson, because you are standing on the edge. To proceed any further along your lines of thought is to abandon the uniform you wear and to disgrace your country and your heritage.
Since Jecks is unable to draw a convincing link between Newsweek printing an erroneous story and some mythical cabal of journalists printing falsified stories at the behest of dark masters within the DNC,
I never made any inference to a "mythical cabal" of any kind.
When I made the comment "why do you WANT the story of Koran abuse to be true?" it refers only to Relbeek and Partha.......not even Ddrak.......and was trollish in nature. So I have to ask again, where do you get the ineference to the "tin foil" hat position that there is some sort of journalistic konspiracy?
Crimson~
As I said before I know where you are coming from. I have seen good men go down the road you are currently traveling trying to comprehend the incomprehensible. Allow me, an individual who has peered into the Abyss, to give you some advice.
There is only one way to be better than your enemy and that is to adhere to the principles that were laid out by our founders and the men who fought before us and to learn from their mistakes.
I would lay down my life, and gladly, so that the New York Times, Newsweek, USAToday, or any other media outlet could print both the negative and the positive about me and any of my fellow soldiers. If an American serviceman commits an abuse it is the duty of any soldier to be sure that the abuse is known and taken care of. It is the duty of the press to expose those abuses and be sure that justice is carried out.
That is what makes us better than them. We will not allow ourselves to be lowered to the level of a common thug. When you put on the uniform you take upon yourself a solemn duty. Perhaps you have forgotten the creed of an American Soldier...
I am an American Soldier.
I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.
I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.
I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.
I am an expert and I am a professional.
I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
I am an American Soldier.
There are two very important lines in the creed that apply to this instance.
I serve the people of the United States
and
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
How can you serve the American people yet break their laws?
How can you be a guardian of the American way of life and not live it yourself?
Examine yourself closely, Crimson, because you are standing on the edge. To proceed any further along your lines of thought is to abandon the uniform you wear and to disgrace your country and your heritage.
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crimsontide27
- Fellow n00b
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:07 pm
Parth, you ask do I have a low opinion on all other religions. The answer is no.
Before going overseas and experiencing Islam in other countries, I had no problem with it, in fact a couple of my best friends were Muslims that I had grown up with while hteir parents attended college at Ole Miss.
I had many bad experiences that changed my opinion, just like others have bad experiences with other issues, thus swaying their opinions.
First off, Islam as a whole is not wrong. What is wrong is the way the media spins what is going on to turn hatred on the US. Islam in todays soceity, wether it be in Afghan, Iraq, GItmo, etc....is only used when it is conveinent.
I dont want to join the copy and past brigade here, but the Islam is supposed to be <peaceful> religion. Yet, no one uses Islam and says its wrong when a group of women come to our checkgates shooting at us, no one says it wrong when a little child goes up to our helicopters and trys to blow herself up.
True storys...
We are on checkgate, we have a 7 step procedure to follow with our rules of engagments. They involve speaking in Arabic, displaying of the weapon, raising the weapon in case there is a misunderstanding, and a warning shot. Inbetween each action is the word < Stop> in arabic so there is no confusion. The muslims know that we look down upon killing anyone, esp women and children, so they use that to their advantage. We watched 2 US soldiers die due to women shooting us and we were not allowed to return fire until 2 soldiers died. As soon as we returned firee and killed the women, there was the press...taking pics of the dead bodys....no...not the US soldiers, but of the women. The next day their was a flyer been posted all over the local city, showing how we are murders and are killing women and children and how this is a Holy War. Here, they take an incident, and use Islam to inflame the people. No where in the article was mentioned that the women killed 2 soldier, no where did it mention they refused to engage even though the RoEs had been followed and it should have been ok.
THey take advantage of our tolerence.
On the temp airfield SW of Baghdad, there were over 40 US helioopters on the flight line and thus was under heavy guard. Their were guards posted all over the place , signs in Arabic saying stay away etc. A little girl starts coming to the airfield...we saw her at least 100 yrds out. Soldiers using the 7 step procedures.....use 7 steps again...and again ....and again. No one wants to shoot a baby, I dont care what religion they are.
THe little girl made it with 5 feet of the airfield, and soldier was rushing out to get her. As the soldier was approaching the young girl pulled a firearm out and shot at the soldier, it was then the commander finally gave the ok to engage and we killed her.
Sad story isnt it, but when they went to retrieve the body, that little girl was wired with grenades and fishing line was taped around her arms, so if she raised her arms up high, it should have popped the pins. Of course that part of the story was never told, just the
fact we are Christians out to kill women and children and convert all to Christianity. As usual, there was a reporter nearby that managed to get a pic of this incident, couple days later, wouldnt you know it was distributed to the locals with a one sided slant. Thus causing this community to riot.
Being with an aviation division, I had the opportunity to fly all over the country, most units were given a sector pretty much to maintain, but we did it all, thus those of us in aviation so how things were all over the country. Many towns we came across welcomed the soldiers with open arms. We fixed their waters supplys, we gave them brand new Qurans, we gve them food, fixed their electricty. So those individuals that were against us going there, had to find some way to get the people back on their side...and ISLAM was the tool.
We were able to walk freely around a few communitys, even taking time out to play soccer with the local children and teach them the game of basketball, but once the propaganda machine hit with the Americans are here to kill our women and children, and convert all to Christianity, we lost the initative.
It was our very own media that went against us there. Pictures got circulated to AL-Jazerra, and them croped and photoshopped to incite violance and try to make this a Holy War. IM sure you remember the pics of the British soldiers that were shown beating a dude....well, upon investigations, it was easy to tell they were fake, wrong kinda of military issue, wrong rifle, etc etc..
Point of all this is to say, Islam at its foundation is not wrong, what makes it wrong is the way the media and the Arabs only use Islam when it is conveinent. American soldiers had no problem with detainees having Qurans with them the whole time, but it became an issue when they were using them to smuggle weapons, messages to others etc....then all of a sudden....it became an issue of us violating Islamic beliefs.
Islam in todays society is like playing a game of spades with no rules against renigging.
If all else fails, we play the Islam (spade) card. This recent article in Newsweek was just there to stir up more trouble. It may not affect some of you, but I still have friends and my fellow soldiers over there in harms way, and the last thing we need is for more world media organazations spouting off at the mouth and causing more people to die.
Before going overseas and experiencing Islam in other countries, I had no problem with it, in fact a couple of my best friends were Muslims that I had grown up with while hteir parents attended college at Ole Miss.
I had many bad experiences that changed my opinion, just like others have bad experiences with other issues, thus swaying their opinions.
First off, Islam as a whole is not wrong. What is wrong is the way the media spins what is going on to turn hatred on the US. Islam in todays soceity, wether it be in Afghan, Iraq, GItmo, etc....is only used when it is conveinent.
I dont want to join the copy and past brigade here, but the Islam is supposed to be <peaceful> religion. Yet, no one uses Islam and says its wrong when a group of women come to our checkgates shooting at us, no one says it wrong when a little child goes up to our helicopters and trys to blow herself up.
True storys...
We are on checkgate, we have a 7 step procedure to follow with our rules of engagments. They involve speaking in Arabic, displaying of the weapon, raising the weapon in case there is a misunderstanding, and a warning shot. Inbetween each action is the word < Stop> in arabic so there is no confusion. The muslims know that we look down upon killing anyone, esp women and children, so they use that to their advantage. We watched 2 US soldiers die due to women shooting us and we were not allowed to return fire until 2 soldiers died. As soon as we returned firee and killed the women, there was the press...taking pics of the dead bodys....no...not the US soldiers, but of the women. The next day their was a flyer been posted all over the local city, showing how we are murders and are killing women and children and how this is a Holy War. Here, they take an incident, and use Islam to inflame the people. No where in the article was mentioned that the women killed 2 soldier, no where did it mention they refused to engage even though the RoEs had been followed and it should have been ok.
THey take advantage of our tolerence.
On the temp airfield SW of Baghdad, there were over 40 US helioopters on the flight line and thus was under heavy guard. Their were guards posted all over the place , signs in Arabic saying stay away etc. A little girl starts coming to the airfield...we saw her at least 100 yrds out. Soldiers using the 7 step procedures.....use 7 steps again...and again ....and again. No one wants to shoot a baby, I dont care what religion they are.
THe little girl made it with 5 feet of the airfield, and soldier was rushing out to get her. As the soldier was approaching the young girl pulled a firearm out and shot at the soldier, it was then the commander finally gave the ok to engage and we killed her.
Sad story isnt it, but when they went to retrieve the body, that little girl was wired with grenades and fishing line was taped around her arms, so if she raised her arms up high, it should have popped the pins. Of course that part of the story was never told, just the
fact we are Christians out to kill women and children and convert all to Christianity. As usual, there was a reporter nearby that managed to get a pic of this incident, couple days later, wouldnt you know it was distributed to the locals with a one sided slant. Thus causing this community to riot.
Being with an aviation division, I had the opportunity to fly all over the country, most units were given a sector pretty much to maintain, but we did it all, thus those of us in aviation so how things were all over the country. Many towns we came across welcomed the soldiers with open arms. We fixed their waters supplys, we gave them brand new Qurans, we gve them food, fixed their electricty. So those individuals that were against us going there, had to find some way to get the people back on their side...and ISLAM was the tool.
We were able to walk freely around a few communitys, even taking time out to play soccer with the local children and teach them the game of basketball, but once the propaganda machine hit with the Americans are here to kill our women and children, and convert all to Christianity, we lost the initative.
It was our very own media that went against us there. Pictures got circulated to AL-Jazerra, and them croped and photoshopped to incite violance and try to make this a Holy War. IM sure you remember the pics of the British soldiers that were shown beating a dude....well, upon investigations, it was easy to tell they were fake, wrong kinda of military issue, wrong rifle, etc etc..
Point of all this is to say, Islam at its foundation is not wrong, what makes it wrong is the way the media and the Arabs only use Islam when it is conveinent. American soldiers had no problem with detainees having Qurans with them the whole time, but it became an issue when they were using them to smuggle weapons, messages to others etc....then all of a sudden....it became an issue of us violating Islamic beliefs.
Islam in todays society is like playing a game of spades with no rules against renigging.
If all else fails, we play the Islam (spade) card. This recent article in Newsweek was just there to stir up more trouble. It may not affect some of you, but I still have friends and my fellow soldiers over there in harms way, and the last thing we need is for more world media organazations spouting off at the mouth and causing more people to die.
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crimsontide27
- Fellow n00b
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:07 pm
And to Jecks
"How can you serve the American people yet break their laws?
How can you be a guardian of the American way of life and not live it yourself?
I am curious as to know what you are referring to in those instances.
I see in no way did i NOT be a guardian, or where any laws were broke.
SImply because my opinion and yours is different, doesnt mean either one of us is less of a soldier or a man. I doubt youve been to Iraq, I doubt you have dealt with this first hand. If you have, then I apoligize.
I got tired of going to memorial services when deaths could be avoided in the name of Islam, I got tired of reporters trying to make a quick dollar slant everything we did to make it look like we are monsters. Its easy to suggest how things work based off of theory alone.
Being that you are in the military, I have to belive you spent some time at the NTC. Same concept applys with theory. Commanders lay out a complicated battle plan, issue orders to all their units, and as soon as first CAS fire comes in, or first shot goes down range, the ballgame changes. Thus is the same principle overseas. No where did we plan that Islam would be used against us. Every possible step to insure we catered to the needs of these people were made.
This was a war, people died. You have to draw the line at some point to where protecting your own is more important. If we are so bad, and dont live the principles of Americans...why didnt we just blow up the Mosques that harbored all the enemy and weapons etc? Why didnt we just take out thier radio and TV station...even though they moved hundreds of kids into that location, and made it public...so that we wouldnt take it out? Point is, we didnt. We fought by the very values of the American people and their beliefs, it is the people that sit at home, and have no clue what is really going on that thinks there is a problem.
No other country in this world caters to the populations of the countries they fight like we do. What other country lets their own soldiers suffer at a medevac station, because they have enemy personal they are working on? What other country lets their own soldiers miss out on hot food because we got too many detainees that day and thus they got hot food, and we got MRE or those old azz T-rats. We didnt just go door to door picking up innocent people man. Those that were captured were done so...WHILE attacking us. One minute were being shot at, next minute hes sitting in mess tent getting food with us so to speak. WTF is up with that? There was a group of insurgents that attacked us no less than 4 times a day, and everytime they were captured , they were given hot food, medical support, and fugging released back out to the general population.....to only see him return the next day attacking yet again. We are the ONLY country that does this sort of thing, so for GoDs sakes dont say im not living by American values or whatever. Im not saying we should stop what we are doing, but there needs to be a point of re-evaluation of what it is we are there for.
I assure you, if you sit at a few memorial services, esp a couple being your friends....and you know there was a hundred ways to prevent what happend yet you couldnt due to the media and thier slant on <Islam> , youd change your theorys as to how things SHOULD work, and how they really do work.
"How can you serve the American people yet break their laws?
How can you be a guardian of the American way of life and not live it yourself?
I am curious as to know what you are referring to in those instances.
I see in no way did i NOT be a guardian, or where any laws were broke.
SImply because my opinion and yours is different, doesnt mean either one of us is less of a soldier or a man. I doubt youve been to Iraq, I doubt you have dealt with this first hand. If you have, then I apoligize.
I got tired of going to memorial services when deaths could be avoided in the name of Islam, I got tired of reporters trying to make a quick dollar slant everything we did to make it look like we are monsters. Its easy to suggest how things work based off of theory alone.
Being that you are in the military, I have to belive you spent some time at the NTC. Same concept applys with theory. Commanders lay out a complicated battle plan, issue orders to all their units, and as soon as first CAS fire comes in, or first shot goes down range, the ballgame changes. Thus is the same principle overseas. No where did we plan that Islam would be used against us. Every possible step to insure we catered to the needs of these people were made.
This was a war, people died. You have to draw the line at some point to where protecting your own is more important. If we are so bad, and dont live the principles of Americans...why didnt we just blow up the Mosques that harbored all the enemy and weapons etc? Why didnt we just take out thier radio and TV station...even though they moved hundreds of kids into that location, and made it public...so that we wouldnt take it out? Point is, we didnt. We fought by the very values of the American people and their beliefs, it is the people that sit at home, and have no clue what is really going on that thinks there is a problem.
No other country in this world caters to the populations of the countries they fight like we do. What other country lets their own soldiers suffer at a medevac station, because they have enemy personal they are working on? What other country lets their own soldiers miss out on hot food because we got too many detainees that day and thus they got hot food, and we got MRE or those old azz T-rats. We didnt just go door to door picking up innocent people man. Those that were captured were done so...WHILE attacking us. One minute were being shot at, next minute hes sitting in mess tent getting food with us so to speak. WTF is up with that? There was a group of insurgents that attacked us no less than 4 times a day, and everytime they were captured , they were given hot food, medical support, and fugging released back out to the general population.....to only see him return the next day attacking yet again. We are the ONLY country that does this sort of thing, so for GoDs sakes dont say im not living by American values or whatever. Im not saying we should stop what we are doing, but there needs to be a point of re-evaluation of what it is we are there for.
I assure you, if you sit at a few memorial services, esp a couple being your friends....and you know there was a hundred ways to prevent what happend yet you couldnt due to the media and thier slant on <Islam> , youd change your theorys as to how things SHOULD work, and how they really do work.
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Trollbait
I assure you, if you sit at a few memorial services, esp a couple being your friends
Would attending the services for 18 of my fellow Rangers, all killed on a hot October day in a country called Somalia qualify me? What about personally removing an undetonated RPG from the middle of the chest of a man I had called a brother? Does that qualify me to speak to you and to "know what I am talking about"? I think my credentials and authority on this matter have been well established by 10 years of active duty service in places like Bosnia, Kosovo, and Somalia. All of them countries with Islamic populations.
I am referring to individuals who violate codes of conduct and abuse detainees. I am referring to your defense of such activity. There is NO excuse for such action.And to Jecks
"How can you serve the American people yet break their laws?
How can you be a guardian of the American way of life and not live it yourself?
I am curious as to know what you are referring to in those instances.
I have been to Fort Irwin for NTC on several occasions. I fail to see the relevance. Changing dynamics inside a combat situation does not mean you may dispose of the guidelines for proper conduct.Being that you are in the military, I have to belive you spent some time at the NTC.
There is a difference between a poltical decision and a military one. If the decision was left up to brigade level commanders I have no doubt many mosques would have been rubble.why didnt we just blow up the Mosques that harbored all the enemy and weapons etc?
The above comment is iirelevant to what we are discussing. We are not talking about the heat of battle. We are talking about detained individuals in Gitmo. They are not an immediate threat and an individual who is assigned to guard them has no right to make summary decisions about their individual treatment.You have to draw the line at some point to where protecting your own is more important
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Harlowe
- Nubile nuptaphobics ftw
- Posts: 10640
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 8:13 pm
- Location: My underground lair
You didn't get Jecks point at all. And before you launch another tirade of chest-thumping, I'm from a military family, most of my family including uncles, cousins, mother, step-father and sister are active in the military, so don't bother trying to strong arm me with your supposed expertise.
I've lived in it from childhood, and I can honestly say Jecks is the type of soldier we admire (and thank god) you see more often than not in the military.
Everything you are saying really just spats in the face of what we fight and give our lives for. What our military families stand for.
You think you are the only person to see death, to be in situations that seem unfair or cruel ....do you even think those in the military are the ONLY ones that give their lives to serve others in this country? How about cops, how about the fire departments.
Life isn't fair buckeraoo and if you don't have the mental strength and the strength of character to uphold the oath you took, then you shouldn't be there. Not everyone is cut out for it, not everyone is strong enough and if you in the end start believing that certain people are bad and that we need to oppress or control the media just to make things safer...that's not only sad, but it's scary. Find another vocation.
I've lived in it from childhood, and I can honestly say Jecks is the type of soldier we admire (and thank god) you see more often than not in the military.
Everything you are saying really just spats in the face of what we fight and give our lives for. What our military families stand for.
You think you are the only person to see death, to be in situations that seem unfair or cruel ....do you even think those in the military are the ONLY ones that give their lives to serve others in this country? How about cops, how about the fire departments.
Life isn't fair buckeraoo and if you don't have the mental strength and the strength of character to uphold the oath you took, then you shouldn't be there. Not everyone is cut out for it, not everyone is strong enough and if you in the end start believing that certain people are bad and that we need to oppress or control the media just to make things safer...that's not only sad, but it's scary. Find another vocation.
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Relbeek Einre
- Der Fuhrer
- Posts: 15871
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:16 am
- Location: Eagan, MN
Crimson's no soldier, you buffoons. He's an obvious troll. A really obvious one. More's the credit to him that you all bit.
Sorry, nobody can be that literate and that neanderthal. Anyone who tries to blame Islam for the woes of the people out there is a moron. It's almost as stupid as talking about the physics of flushing a Koran down a toilet without considering the variable dimensions of such a book. (I've owned a New Testament less than two inches on each side.)
Sorry, nobody can be that literate and that neanderthal. Anyone who tries to blame Islam for the woes of the people out there is a moron. It's almost as stupid as talking about the physics of flushing a Koran down a toilet without considering the variable dimensions of such a book. (I've owned a New Testament less than two inches on each side.)
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Ddrak
- Save a Koala, deport an Australian
- Posts: 17516
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
- Location: Straya mate!
- Contact:
The thing about Crimson's entire rant is it's a huge strawman. He's attributing statements to people that simply haven't been said. He's the one bringing up comparisons between US behavior and Terrorist behavior and then whining about how everyone is oppressing him. He's the one claiming how hard it is to uphold some sort of moralistic stand and then justifying blatant breaches of discipline in Gitmo. He's the one who appears to be taking the steps over the abyss Jecks is talking about and becoming a terrorist himself, with irrational generalisations about entire religious groups, random strawmen to justify his extremism and telling himself in his own mind that he's ok so long as he's not quite as bad as Al-Zarquari.
The fact he still has to learn is that the US army is defending the freedom of the media to print whatever the hell sort of slander they want about him and his pals. The fact is, freedom of the press to slant a story any way they want is an ultimately American value that his code has sworn to uphold. The fact is he simply doesn't understand freedom and is advocating a system akin to state controlled media, state controlled action and abdication of any answerability of the military to anyone. That, my friends, is the situation you find in the nations of our enemies and thankfully not in America.
Crimson has simply lost sight of what he is really fighting for. Maybe if he matures some more he'll regain perspective, but it's difficult to see reason when you're right in the middle of turmoil.
Dd
The fact he still has to learn is that the US army is defending the freedom of the media to print whatever the hell sort of slander they want about him and his pals. The fact is, freedom of the press to slant a story any way they want is an ultimately American value that his code has sworn to uphold. The fact is he simply doesn't understand freedom and is advocating a system akin to state controlled media, state controlled action and abdication of any answerability of the military to anyone. That, my friends, is the situation you find in the nations of our enemies and thankfully not in America.
Crimson has simply lost sight of what he is really fighting for. Maybe if he matures some more he'll regain perspective, but it's difficult to see reason when you're right in the middle of turmoil.
Dd
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crimsontide27
- Fellow n00b
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:07 pm
Maybe my point was missed in a translation, or I probably missed some of your points in responding to mine. Either way, Ill be more clear in what I meant.
The only reason I even posted in this thread is because I find it completely disgusting that the media can publish such a story, with no evidence what so ever, and people jump to conclusions.
No, I dont condone abuse of any prisoner, not matter what race, religion, ethnicty, etc.
What I do have a problem with is the way everyone gets one side of the story, and have no clue as to the truth.
Is our govt always right? Heck no. But I was outraged at this story. You dont see me defending the Abu Garib incident.
The relevance to the NTC scenario was that no matter what plans or theorys you use, as soon as one variable doesnt go the implied path, the whole engagement must change.
I use this to make a point that America has shown their hand time and time again, and the religion card is always the trump card, when in doubt, we will use religion to fire things up. US policy must be able to change around this threat. Anyone that doesnt belive that unrestricted press on a battlefield is bad, should go and join us. Your opinion will change quite quick.
I never was in Bosnia or Somalia, those were before my enlistments. Since I was not there, and only know what I heard about there, I am not informed enough to comment on those situations. What I do know is that the muslims started a fight they couldnt finish, and subsequently were getting slaughtered and the US went in to protect them.
However, I have been to Iraq and Korea. I know for a fact that the relationships between us and the Iraqi's were just fine until the media propaganda machine went into full force, and it was our media that propelled it.
I dont care if you believe I was in service or not, I have nothing to prove one way or the other. I was just as misinformed as the rest of you. You get one side of the story, and never see the other side. I have seen the other side, because I lived it.
The fact remains, Islam is used as a crutch. That religion is only convienent for them when it will stir up controversy and protests against the US.
The only reason I even posted in this thread is because I find it completely disgusting that the media can publish such a story, with no evidence what so ever, and people jump to conclusions.
No, I dont condone abuse of any prisoner, not matter what race, religion, ethnicty, etc.
What I do have a problem with is the way everyone gets one side of the story, and have no clue as to the truth.
Is our govt always right? Heck no. But I was outraged at this story. You dont see me defending the Abu Garib incident.
The relevance to the NTC scenario was that no matter what plans or theorys you use, as soon as one variable doesnt go the implied path, the whole engagement must change.
I use this to make a point that America has shown their hand time and time again, and the religion card is always the trump card, when in doubt, we will use religion to fire things up. US policy must be able to change around this threat. Anyone that doesnt belive that unrestricted press on a battlefield is bad, should go and join us. Your opinion will change quite quick.
I never was in Bosnia or Somalia, those were before my enlistments. Since I was not there, and only know what I heard about there, I am not informed enough to comment on those situations. What I do know is that the muslims started a fight they couldnt finish, and subsequently were getting slaughtered and the US went in to protect them.
However, I have been to Iraq and Korea. I know for a fact that the relationships between us and the Iraqi's were just fine until the media propaganda machine went into full force, and it was our media that propelled it.
I dont care if you believe I was in service or not, I have nothing to prove one way or the other. I was just as misinformed as the rest of you. You get one side of the story, and never see the other side. I have seen the other side, because I lived it.
The fact remains, Islam is used as a crutch. That religion is only convienent for them when it will stir up controversy and protests against the US.
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Ddrak
- Save a Koala, deport an Australian
- Posts: 17516
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
- Location: Straya mate!
- Contact:
Crimson,
You need to get the chip off your shoulder. Seriously. I don't know anyone on this board that believes anything remotely like what you seem to be under the impression they believe. You seem to be getting a one sided view of what people think, and I'm really not sure who's feeding you the pack of lies but it needs to stop before you start resenting the people of the US who you are supposed to be working for.
We know terrorists use religion to fire people up.
We know the media can be biased and sensationalizes everything they can to sell advertising space.
We know that US soldiers are out there doing their best in the situation.
We know that allowing the media to firefights can present a new set of risks.
In short, you're really not telling us anything we didn't already know and you're eroding good will towards the troops with your blatant hostility to the people your creed says you work for. It's just not a good situation - perhaps in all your "getting out" in Iraq and SK, you've forgotten to "get out" into American and find out just what is going on over here - because at the moment it seems like you've really not a good idea of that.
With media on the "battlefield", it's a balance. The US mission in Iraq at the moment is supposed to be giving them the freedoms guaranteed by the provisional authority. One of those freedoms is the freedom of the press. That means the media can do whatever it pleases (and is answerable if it doesn anything illegal). If that means slanting stories then that's your problem to deal with and part of the freedoms you are defending.
If it gets too much of a risk, martial law will be declared and the media can then be removed. However at that point the US loses the battle because they are no longer leading Iraq to freedom but replacing one military dictatorship with another.
Lastly, it's not just Islam that is used to fire people up. Study the history of Christianity sometime - really not a spectacular front there either.
Dd
You need to get the chip off your shoulder. Seriously. I don't know anyone on this board that believes anything remotely like what you seem to be under the impression they believe. You seem to be getting a one sided view of what people think, and I'm really not sure who's feeding you the pack of lies but it needs to stop before you start resenting the people of the US who you are supposed to be working for.
We know terrorists use religion to fire people up.
We know the media can be biased and sensationalizes everything they can to sell advertising space.
We know that US soldiers are out there doing their best in the situation.
We know that allowing the media to firefights can present a new set of risks.
In short, you're really not telling us anything we didn't already know and you're eroding good will towards the troops with your blatant hostility to the people your creed says you work for. It's just not a good situation - perhaps in all your "getting out" in Iraq and SK, you've forgotten to "get out" into American and find out just what is going on over here - because at the moment it seems like you've really not a good idea of that.
With media on the "battlefield", it's a balance. The US mission in Iraq at the moment is supposed to be giving them the freedoms guaranteed by the provisional authority. One of those freedoms is the freedom of the press. That means the media can do whatever it pleases (and is answerable if it doesn anything illegal). If that means slanting stories then that's your problem to deal with and part of the freedoms you are defending.
If it gets too much of a risk, martial law will be declared and the media can then be removed. However at that point the US loses the battle because they are no longer leading Iraq to freedom but replacing one military dictatorship with another.
Lastly, it's not just Islam that is used to fire people up. Study the history of Christianity sometime - really not a spectacular front there either.
Dd
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clubbin
- Prov0st and Judge
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:46 pm
- Location: Indianapolis, IN
My point is... issues like this are not so black and white as so-called "conservatives" and "liberals" like to think they are.
Just because you don't buy something from one faction does not mean you do buy it from the opposing faction. Jecks was implying that Partha and Relbeek wanted the allegations to be true because they don't take the spoon feeding dosage he does. That may not even be what everyone is arguing over, but I don't care. I only skimmed through the replies, and I'm positive I missed quite a few things but I still don't care. I only posted my reaction to Jecks' initial post. I don't care if Relbeek is "to(sic) cagey to bite." I am not Relbeek and I don't necessarily agree with what he says. That's just another example of if you're not one of us then you must be one of them.
Just because you don't buy something from one faction does not mean you do buy it from the opposing faction. Jecks was implying that Partha and Relbeek wanted the allegations to be true because they don't take the spoon feeding dosage he does. That may not even be what everyone is arguing over, but I don't care. I only skimmed through the replies, and I'm positive I missed quite a few things but I still don't care. I only posted my reaction to Jecks' initial post. I don't care if Relbeek is "to(sic) cagey to bite." I am not Relbeek and I don't necessarily agree with what he says. That's just another example of if you're not one of us then you must be one of them.
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Eidolon Faer
- The Dark Lord of Felwithe
- Posts: 3237
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:25 pm
Okay Jecks,
We're at least on the same page regarding the "Why do you want the stories to be true?" being trollish.
It's also pretty apparent that Ddrak took the bait. What that says about him, I don't know. I just wasn't in the mood to watch you reel him in.
As for Crimsontide, I'm not going to rip into him. He's got a definite point when he observes that the morality of our enemy is highly situational and one-way. If the Israelis shoot one of their kids it is a great and abiding abomination, but if they tape the dynamite to the kid themselves it's high and holy. I find it entirely credible that they would regard the sanctity of their Koran with similar pragmatism.
And, having seen how bureaucratic policies typically get enforced in the workplace, especially when a lawyer somewhere stands to make a buck, I find it all too credible that your typical nineteen-year-old soldier might be reluctant to handle a Koran at all, even when required for security reasons.
Crimsontide may not be a reincarnation of Samuel Clemens, but he's undeserving of the sort of abuse he's been getting here.
We're at least on the same page regarding the "Why do you want the stories to be true?" being trollish.
It's also pretty apparent that Ddrak took the bait. What that says about him, I don't know. I just wasn't in the mood to watch you reel him in.
As for Crimsontide, I'm not going to rip into him. He's got a definite point when he observes that the morality of our enemy is highly situational and one-way. If the Israelis shoot one of their kids it is a great and abiding abomination, but if they tape the dynamite to the kid themselves it's high and holy. I find it entirely credible that they would regard the sanctity of their Koran with similar pragmatism.
And, having seen how bureaucratic policies typically get enforced in the workplace, especially when a lawyer somewhere stands to make a buck, I find it all too credible that your typical nineteen-year-old soldier might be reluctant to handle a Koran at all, even when required for security reasons.
Crimsontide may not be a reincarnation of Samuel Clemens, but he's undeserving of the sort of abuse he's been getting here.
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Trollbait
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Ddrak
- Save a Koala, deport an Australian
- Posts: 17516
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
- Location: Straya mate!
- Contact:
Eid,
You know I always take bait and make no apologies for it! :)
While I agree Crimson has a point about situational ethics of terrorists, that's not the part that most of us had the problem with - it's the part where he makes the assumption he's the only one that understands that when it's been widely acknowledged by, well, pretty much everyone that it's the case. No one has even argued there weren't cases of prisoners abusing their own Korans - that was understood as a fact from the beginning of the argument.
When you come in with guns blazing telling people what they do and don't think without even making the effort to listen then you deserve everything you get in response. The hostility isn't because of his portrayal of Moslems, it's his portrayal of Americans that is the issue and it that respect he's absolutely deserving.
Dd
You know I always take bait and make no apologies for it! :)
While I agree Crimson has a point about situational ethics of terrorists, that's not the part that most of us had the problem with - it's the part where he makes the assumption he's the only one that understands that when it's been widely acknowledged by, well, pretty much everyone that it's the case. No one has even argued there weren't cases of prisoners abusing their own Korans - that was understood as a fact from the beginning of the argument.
When you come in with guns blazing telling people what they do and don't think without even making the effort to listen then you deserve everything you get in response. The hostility isn't because of his portrayal of Moslems, it's his portrayal of Americans that is the issue and it that respect he's absolutely deserving.
Dd