Saudi-US Relations

[Relbeek Einre]

Watching The Daily Show last night, Stewart had a really interesting guest on. I wish I committed his name or the book he wrote to memory, and I hope to snag a rerun so I can find the info.

But the discussion - laced with Stewart's usual one-liners - was about the book, which examines US-Saudi history over the last 80 years and suggests that in a post-9/11 world it really needs to change.

The salient point is that Saudi Arabia has the US literally over a barrel - an oil barrel - and as such is unique in the world in that it can "have it both ways" with respect to the war on terror: They can be our allies, yet money and resources flows from the country to support some of the worst Islamic terrorists on Earth. And this author's position was that our tolerance of this from Saudi Arabia - because of our dependence on their oil - weakens our position in the "War on Terror" and in the wuest for human rights and democracy across the globe. (An example of human rights: Saudi Arabia is one of the last places on Earth where women by law are forbidden from doing such things as driving. Let's not even talk about their Draconian "justice" system.)

I think his points were very interesting, though some of the details sounded a bit conspiratorial to me, and they harped on Bush holding hands with the Crown Prince a bit much.

So what do y'all think?

[Ddrak]

I tend to agree, though to ditch Saudi means fuel prices rocketing up and I'm not sure if the economic effects of that outweigh the negative economic effects of the occasional terrorist attack. If you think in human terms, the cost in lives of more expensive fuel could be considered far in excess of any damage a terrorist would do, just it would fail to hit the 6pm news.

So, the question is whether to take the moralistic stand and ditch Saudi or take the pragmatic stand and keep pandering to them, at least until we can secure Iraq's oil.

And yes - the holding hands thing was nothing but excellent "quote this" material.

Dd

[Dlaet]

Gerald Posner. I would like to read his book, because you can only get so much out of such a short interview.

The best line of the show: "He died of thirst". You can't make that stuff up.

[clubbin]

Secrets of the Kingdom - Posner (I forgot his first name)

I plan on picking up the book. I studied the history of Saudi briefly in a history of American religion class last year. I also had a few friends who lived in Saudi up until the war started. Saudi is pretty screwed up internally from what I have heard and read, but hey who isn't these days. I would argue that, in the past, Saudi has needed the US as much as vice versa. With the expanded global market and modernization of countries like Brazil and China among others, they have plenty more markets to sell oil to nowadays. I'm not sure what Posner's historian credentials are, but hopefully it will be a good read.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Watching The Daily Show last night, Stewart had a really interesting guest on. I wish I committed his name or the book he wrote to memory, and I hope to snag a rerun so I can find the info.

But the discussion - laced with Stewart's usual one-liners - was about the book, which examines US-Saudi history over the last 80 years and suggests that in a post-9/11 world it really needs to change.

The salient point is that Saudi Arabia has the US literally over a barrel - an oil barrel - and as such is unique in the world in that it can "have it both ways" with respect to the war on terror: They can be our allies, yet money and resources flows from the country to support some of the worst Islamic terrorists on Earth. And this author's position was that our tolerance of this from Saudi Arabia - because of our dependence on their oil - weakens our position in the "War on Terror" and in the wuest for human rights and democracy across the globe. (An example of human rights: Saudi Arabia is one of the last places on Earth where women by law are forbidden from doing such things as driving. Let's not even talk about their Draconian "justice" system.)

I think his points were very interesting, though some of the details sounded a bit conspiratorial to me, and they harped on Bush holding hands with the Crown Prince a bit much.

So what do y'all think?

Welcome to last decade. That line of thought is nothing new or revealing. The Saudis have never been our allies. They have been business partners. They do not share our view of a democratic world. They do not have the same concern for human rights. They have no desire to see democracy take hold in the middle east.

Ours is marriage of necessity, for the time being. If you leftists really want to break away from dependency on that regime, support oil drilling in the Alaskan wilderness.

[SicTimMitchell]

We're not in a real good position to be criticizing other countries' human rights records right now.

You don't get much more pro-America than I am. But Saudi Arabia still doesn't execute children. (It's down to us and Somalia.)

Culture of life my ass.

[Relbeek Einre]

I thought the execution of juveniles has been banned.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I thought the execution of juveniles has been banned.

It has. The SC banned it in March of this year. 5-4 vote.

[Embar Angylwrath]

We're not in a real good position to be criticizing other countries' human rights records right now.

You don't get much more pro-America than I am. But Saudi Arabia still doesn't execute children. (It's down to us and Somalia.)

Culture of life my ass.

The countries that still execute minors are Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and China. Somalia doesn't do it, to my knowledge.

Practically though, Saudi Arabia hasn't executed a minor is some time, even though the law remains on their books. Iran has one kid on the execution block right now. China.. well.. it's China. And I'm not sure what the current status is in Pakistan or Nigeria.

The US however, executes more people than all other countries combined. It's a travesty of human rights, and it lessens our position as defenders of human rights.

The death penalty sickens me.

[Relbeek Einre]

Are you sure about that, Embar? And I assume you're talking execution by sentence, not by massacre?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Yeah.. execution by sentence within the framework of the respective legal structure. Not counting acts of genocide, since by definition, they are outside of the supposed legally sanctioned punishments.

[Tholiak Eladamri]

Just because the Supreme Court says something..doesnt mean its gona be Followed....just look at the 7th Circuit in regards to the RICO Act

[Ddrak]

/boggle

[vaulos]

Oddly enough, I think the idea of Saudi Arabia having the US over a barrel is a bit of a misstatement. After all, Saudi Arabia is a one pony economy. If the world stops needing oil, as many hope to achieve in the next 20 years, then Saudi Arabia becomes a hole in the ground that no one cares about (sorta like Africa). This may account for the fact that Saudi Arabia is doing all that it can to keep gas prices low, despite the fact that it would make more money by limiting avaliability. More importantly, Saudi Arabia needs us to head off Al'Qaeda off at the pass -- keep in mind that thier real goal is to take over Saudi Arabia...not destroy the US.

Saudi Arabia needs the US more than we need Saudi Arabia...at least in the long term. We should be thankful, however, that we currently do have some dependency on Middle East oil. After all, without that mild dependency, we wouldn't care what happened in those hell-holes of tyranny, much like we don't give a shit about who is currently raping the people of Africa.

[superwalrus]

Tholiak, you're a fucking retard. If the SC says, "you can't execute anyone under the age of 18." then NO ONE CAN DO THAT UNLESS THERE IS A FUCKING AMENDMENT or THE SC OVERRULES ITSELF.

Whenever the SC rules a certain way over a constitutional issue, every court must follow that, and if its a federal issue, every court must follow that too. If they rule on a state issue, no court has to follow that unless they use the constitution as a reason.

Learn the law ballsack.

Walrus

ps. the death penalty is great

[vaulos]

Tholiak is actually correct as a matter of course. The lower courts are free to disagree with the federal bench and thus force the USSC to overturn all similar cases themselves. This rarely if ever happens, but it is still possible.

[Ozbee's Revenge]

Embar...

The US however, executes more people than all other countries combined. It's a travesty of human rights, and it lessens our position as defenders of human rights.

Reality...

Based on public reports available, Amnesty International estimated that at least 3,400 people were executed in China during the year, although the true figures were believed to be much higher. In March 2004 a delegate at the National People's Congress said that "nearly 10,000" people are executed per year in China.

Iran executed at least 159 people, and Viet Nam at least 64. There were 59 executions in the USA, down from 65 in 2003.

From:
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-facts-eng

"Earth to Embar, come in Embar."

Oz

[Embar Angylwrath]

You're right Ozbee. I stand corrected. China gets the honor of performing the most executions each year. Guess I need to read up some more. And according to Amnesty International, 25 countries executed 3,797 people, so apparently there a lot more countries out there that are using the death penalty. Again, according to Amnesty International, China, Viet Nam, Iran and the USA were in the top 4 spots (USA was fourth with 59 people).

However, its nice to know we keep good company with such stellar observers of human rights such as those three countires. IT's really something we should all be proud of. /sarcasm off

The death penalty is barbaric. China is a good example of what happens when you give the state too much power, including the power of life and death of its citizens. They kill people for embezzlement, for crissakes. And don't think it couldn't happen here. The US has been steadliy increasing the number and types of offenses that warrant the death penalty. It's a sickening trend, and it cheapens human life.

[Partha]

I could almost find the above post hilarious.

[vaulos]

Embar- Considering the cost of medical treatment these days, the only way that we could be cheaping human life, if we used a firing squad rather than lethal injection. In most cases, the drugs we pump into these individuals doubles thier net worth.