The Official Abortion Thread

[Embar Angylwrath]

How about Vancouver?

How about Chicago?

[Partha]

Well, I was humpin' my bluey on the dusty Oodnadatta road,
When along came a semi with a high and canvas-covered load.
"If you're goin' to Oodnadatta, mate, um, with me you can ride."
So I climbed in the cabin and I settled down inside.
He asked me if I'd seen a road with so much dust and sand, I said
"Listen, mate, I've travelled ev'ry road in this here land."

Cause I've been everywhere, man,
I've been everywhere, man.
'Cross the deserts bare, man;
I've breathed the mountain air, man.
Of travel I've had my share, man.
I've been everywhere.

"Been to . . "

I've been to Tullamore, Seymour, Lismore, Mooloolaba,
Nambour, Maroochydore, Kilmore, Murwillumbah,
Birdsville, Emmaville, Wallaville, Cunnamulla,
Condamine, Strathpine, Proserpine, Ulladulla,
Darwin, Gin Gin, Deniliquin, Muckadilla,
Wallambilla, Boggabilla, Kumbarilla,
I'm a killer.

I've been everywhere, man.
'Cross the deserts bare, man;
I've breathed the mountain air, man.
Of travel I've had my share, man.
I've been everywhere.

"Yeah but listen here, mate, have you been to..."

I've been to Moree, Taree, Jerilderie, Bambaroo,
Toowoomba, Gunnedah, Caringbah, Woolloomooloo,
Dalveen, Tamborine, Engadine, Jindabyne,
Lithgow, Casino, Brigalow and Narromine,
Megalong, Wyong, Tuggerawong, Wangarella,
Morella, Augathella, Brindabella, I'm the feller.

I've been everywhere, man.
'Cross the deserts bare, man;
I've breathed the mountain air, man.
Of travel I've had my share, man.
I've been everywhere.

"Yeah, I know that, but have you been to..."

I've been to Wollongong, Geelong, Kurrajong, Mullumbimby,
Mittagong, Molong, Grong Grong, Goondiwindi,
Yarra Yarra, Bouindarra, Wallangarra, Turramurra,
Boggabri, Gundagai, Narrabri, Tibooburra,
Gulgong, Adelong, Billabong, Cabramatta,
Parramatta, Wangaratta*, Coolangatta, what's it matter?

I've been everywhere, man.
'Cross the deserts bare, man;
I've breathed the mountain air, man.
Of travel I've had my share, man.
I've been everywhere.

"Yeah, look that's fine, but how about..."

I've been to Ettalong, Dandenong, Woodenbong, Ballarat,
Canberra, Milperra, Unanderra, Captain's Flat,
Cloncurry, River Murray, Kurri Kurri, Girraween,
Terrigal, Fingal, Stockinbingal, Collaroy and Narrabeen,
Bendigo, Dorrigo, Bangalow, Indooroopilly,
Kirribilli, Yeerongpilly, Wollondilly, don't be silly.

I've been everywhere, man.
'Cross the deserts bare, man;
I've breathed the mountain air, man.
Of travel I've had my share, man.
I've been everywhere.
I've been here, there, everywhere, I've been everywhere.

"Okay, mate, you've been ev'ry place except one,
and ya don't need my help t'get there . . ."

[Ddrak]

wtf - who let you have Australian music?

Dd

[Partha]

Heheh, the guy who originally wrote that song wrote it with both Australian and US place names. There's also a New Zealander version too, and probably some others.

[calleagh]

wow. so much to say on this topic. first........(and i can admit this because i am as faceless to all of you as you are to me) i've done all 3; adoption, abortion, and children. i gave a child up for adoption when i was 16 yrs old and while i loved the movie, juno, trust me adoption isnt that humorous. it's heartbreakingly tough even if you know there is no room for a baby in your life. i didnt want to keep the baby as i was pretty much a baby myself but i rejoiced in every kick, hiccup, and elbow nudging he gave me. when you adopt your baby out you go through the same grief process as you do for the death of a loved one although people around you don't want to see your grief. you tuck it deep inside of your heart and pray that when he/she is old enough they will look you up.

abortion. that was probably the single biggest regret of my life. i was in my early 20's and the life of the party. i went to an abortion clinic to rid myself of "it" as soon as i could. god knows i couldn't be inconvenienced by a baby. yes, i am being sarcastic. not a day has gone by that i havent regretted it. i will always feel that i killed my own child out of selfishness and irresponsibility. i've been pro-life ever since.

i've seen a lot of unique opinions here but some of them are way over the top. select, i don't know what world you live in but i don't think it's the real one. bladders go weak from multiple births. vaginas are muscles and do contract after a birth. tearing is not the norm. i can truthfully say that after 4 children i never felt like a life support machine and hey my vag is probably tighter or as tight as yours . it's all about the keigel's, dear.

lol you also said give it to a relative or abandon it. wtf?? i have a daughter and when she got in same boat i told her i would support her decisions but i would not raise her child. why should i? i've done my time. abandonment? that's absurd. by the way, my daughter got married and she and husband have a beautiful boy.

someone mentioned welfare checks. trust me, nobody out there is getting rich on welfare. in the state where i live the max you can be on welfare is 2 yrs and you have to show that you are actively looking for work and you also have to show up for classes. for a woman with 2 children the allowance PER MONTH is less than 200 dollars.

my biggest problem is the lazy bitches who use abortion as a means of contraceptive. i know women who have had 4 or 5 abortions. i mean, WTF it's time to close your skank-assed legs or get on birth control. there is no reason i can think of for any woman to not avail herself of contraceptives if she doesnt trust her partner to wear condoms. i guess then the same women in select's world would bitch about how it made her gain 10 pounds. if you can make the decision to have sex then you can make the decision to have sex responsibly. if you can't do that then get a vibrator.

[Ddrak]

I'm confused, Calleagh.

You say you're pro-life, but do you mean that you think abortion is wrong or that you want to make it legally impossible for any other woman to get an abortion? From your "I would support her decisions" statement about your daughter it sounds a lot more like you're pro-choice and choose to advocate against abortion.

Dd

[calleagh]

i am defiinitely pro-life. my daughter is also and (sorry i didnt make this clear in previous post) to her, her choices were adoption or be a mother.

taking a stance on whether or not it should be legislated is where i tend to waffle. i understand the panic that sets in when an unwed mother realizes she is pregnant and i understand that aborting it is, for her, the easiest and fastest solution. but this isn't an STD nor is it a "minor inconvenience". dammit, it's a life. there is nothing anyone can say to me that would convince me otherwise. while i see both sides of the coin i would have to say that i feel that the current legislation in the US needs to be drastically altered. i can understand the rape issue and i do feel that those cases should be exempt but i am also willing to bet that if that happened there would be a rash of "rape babies" breaking out all over the ass of america. ironically, i am conservative on two issues only: abortion and capital punishment. in every other way i am definitely left of center.

[Alluveal]

So many shades of gray on this.

First off, the percentage of women who are raped and find themselves pregnant is extremely low.

Second, there's the morning after pill. It may prevent ovulation or, if fertilization has occurred, it may ruin the implantation. In other words, it makes the uterus less "sticky" if fertilization has occurred. This could be construed as "an abortion" if you believe life begins at the moment of conception. But, it is an option that I find more appealing than an abortion at 2-3 months when the embryo has a heartbeat.

Oral contraceptives also work in this way. If fertilization does occur while you are on the pill, then many types of pills will go a step further and ruin implantation. That's probably one reason why some peeps don't believe in oral contraceptives.

I personally would never have an abortion. But I would consider the morning after pill in the case of rape and I use the pill as birth control. If it has a heartbeat, then I couldn't abort it, unless I was in some kind of severe medical distress where I would die if I had the baby (and those circumstances are also rare.)

But, I think abortion should be legal up to a certain point. It's the lesser of two evils.

1. Abortion is illegal. Mom goes to get a back-alley job. Bleeds to death. Both her and fetus die.
2. Abortion is legal. Mom gets an abortion. Only fetus dies.

It's a terrible call and one that I am really uncomfortable with, but it's I have at this point.

I don't approve of women who go out, fuck a guy then get pregnant and say, "Oops, I want my career first," or "I am not ready for a baby." Here's an option. Close your legs. The biological act of sex is for procreation. No matter what method of birth control you are using, there IS (in most cases, barring hysterectomy) a chance a pregnancy will occur. Every time someone has sex, they have to understand this is a possible outcome, no matter how careful they are. There is also adoption (though that is usually hissed at with severe hatred by women who are pro-abortion--how DARE we force a woman to carry a baby for 9 months--it's her body, blah blah blah.)

The woman who has multiple abortions and uses it as means for birth control, well, I hope she considers sterilization. I wouldn't want her tainted DNA clouding the rest of the gene pool.

As for anti-abortion protesters who use 3-story images of aborted fetuses and dead babies--try a new tactic. People who are 100% gung ho about abortion won't give a shit. And those who are against it (fully or to a big degree like I am,) are the ones you're torturing. Furthermore, there are women who have had miscarriages who have to look at those images and think, "that's what my baby looked like." Piss poor planning at best and I would question the humanity of anyone who uses this method.

Again, I don't believe abortion is the solution for 99.9% of cases. This is not based in something spiritual or religious. But when I got my 6 week ultrasound and saw a heartbeat, I couldn't have just put an end to that. It's alive and it's inside of me. Because it's not viable outside the womb at that moment doesn't make it any less important in my eyes.

[Select]

lol you also said give it to a relative or abandon it. wtf?? i have a daughter and when she got in same boat i told her i would support her decisions but i would not raise her child. why should i? i've done my time. abandonment? that's absurd. by the way, my daughter got married and she and husband have a beautiful boy.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I wasn't saying handing it to a relative or abandonment are what a mother *should* do. I was saying that once the kid is outside of her, she has the ability to physically walk away from it -even for five minutes if she needs the break. Or grandma can give the kid its 2 o'clock feeding and put it down for a nap. When it's inside a woman 24/7 during pregnancy, those options don't exist. She is the sole caregiver and no one can take it off her hands even for five minutes. That was my point.

My mother had her bladder affected after two births. She has three kids. As for the vaginal tearing, I have heard very different from the women in my life with kids. But, I suppose we shouldn't sit here and say what is or isn't common without data to support it since that's what Rants is all about.

I have never found a need for Keigel's I highly doubt you're tighter, but if you want to have a pissing contest, we can send each other pics of us trying to force tiny objects inside ourselves and the winner can get a free box of tampons.

i guess then the same women in select's world would bitch about how it made her gain 10 pounds.

And oh, please. Read my points correctly if you're going to bother. I am a huge supporter of birth control and abortion is an absolute last resort in "my world". If you read my points correctly, you would see that I believe there should be responsibility and careful consideration before an abortion is done.

[Kulaf]

Whoever can get both hands in and not be able to clap is the winner.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Select -

All that tripe about being tied to the fetus 24/7, and then comparing that to quality of life of the mother AFTER she gives birth, is just a bunch of hogwash. You're tied to your fingernails and hair 24/7, yet that probably doesn't affect your quality of life much.

Other than having to deal with the typical physical manifestations of a pregnancy, a pregnant woman is pretty much free to do whatever she wants, whenever she wants. That simply isn't the case after a woman gives birth and keeps the baby. Any of the mothers here will tell you the same. And you talk like there is always someone to hand the baby off to whenever the mother feels she needs a break. I know you're young, but saying shit like that just speaks to your naivete in the matter of parenting.

[Select]

I may talk "like" "whenever she needs a break" but I did not say that. I said it as a possibility, an option.
A mother can walk away from a born child if she does not want it. A pregnant women can't just walk away if she doesn't want it.

My fingernails and hair don't make me sick, change my body (drastically), etc.

And are you a parent, Embar?

[Alluveal]

I definitely like my breaks. Husband takes the baby and I take a bath. Ahh. A responsible parent allows themselves breaks.

And I felt very much as Select suggests during a huge part of my pregnancy. It was miraculous and wonderful to feel life inside me, but the first three months of my head in a toilet because I was horking everything up--not fun. I felt like my body was no longer my own, that I was a walking incubator with little or no choice.

You can't take a break from being pregnant. Once you hit the 3rd trimester you're praying to God to get it out of you before you go berzerk. You're hungry all the time and you can't eat more than a teacup full of food because the baby's taking up all the room. Then you cry when your husband asks for a bite of your spaghetti because it's YOURS, not his and you glare at him with the intensity of a wild, rabid she-cat.

The hormonal change is enough to make you lose your mind. You get angry at the drop of a hat, upset, emotional, then the rest of the time you just want everyone out of your fucking way because you're big as a whale and get stuck in the aisle at the grocery store trying to turn the cart around. You feel like you've been possessed by Satan himself (or Anne Coulter,) and you just want your mind back. You can feel it slipping away every time you have to pee (which is just about every 45 minutes on the dot.)

My body wasn't my own and for all the bitching I did above, it was definitely worth it and the good far outweighed the bad. But there were numerous times when I wish God could have let me switch bodies with my husband, even if for just an hour.

As for the weight gain: I weigh less now than I did before I was pregnant. Many women are that way. Breastfeeding rocks.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Oh for crissakes..

C'mon Alluveal. What you're describing is the same as PMS episode. Cranky, emotional, not feeling well. And I don't take that away from you, I'm sure that was an honest recollection of YOUR experience with pregnancy. Other women can have very different experiences.

I get that pregnancy makes a woman uncomfortable. But is that any reason to kill an innocent child? Hell, I'm uncomfortable when my wife sits in the good chair, and I sit in the not-so-good chair. Does that mean I get to kill her because "hey, its my body and I can do what I want with it", and she has no right to interefer with my right to be comfortable?

And on a tangent, that's the flaw with Dd's statement of "your rights end where my rights begin", or something to that effect. All humans have a right to life. Making a fetus' right to life subservient to another human's right to life is ethically, and logically, unsustainable.

[Select]

I have never seen a PMS episode be quite as intense as an angry pregnant woman. PMS also comes in much smaller bursts than what pregnancy brings.

I get that pregnancy makes a woman uncomfortable. But is that any reason to kill an innocent child? Hell, I'm uncomfortable when my wife sits in the good chair, and I sit in the not-so-good chair. Does that mean I get to kill her because "hey, its my body and I can do what I want with it", and she has no right to interefer with my right to be comfortable?

Now you're just making crazy statements that have nothing to do with the topic at hand and aren't an equal comparison.

[Ddrak]

taking a stance on whether or not it should be legislated is where i tend to waffle. i understand the panic that sets in when an unwed mother realizes she is pregnant and i understand that aborting it is, for her, the easiest and fastest solution. but this isn't an STD nor is it a "minor inconvenience". dammit, it's a life. there is nothing anyone can say to me that would convince me otherwise.

And right there you're beating strawmen. So what if it's a life? If your daughter got sick and you were the only compatible blood donor, should it be *illegal* for you not to give her some of your blood? Of course it's the right moral thing to do but should the law be stripping you of your right to decide what to do and not to do with your own body?

This isn't about an easy or fast solution. It's not about an "inconvenience". It's about whether a woman has the right to her own body or not and to decide whether some other life has access to it or not. You've already admitted it is a separate life, so do you plan on imprisoning every unwanted fetus for aggravated assault now, because that's exactly what it is when it won't leave the woman alone if she doesn't wish it.

Consider this then - if a fetus is a life and abortion is murder, do you ask that mothers who have an abortion be given the same penalty as other murders, ie a lethal injection in many states? How about 25 years imprisonment? Tell me - what's the punishment in your mind here?

I notice Embar is still harping on his mistaken mantra that "all humans have a right to life". It's bullshit. How many homeless die each day that could have been saved if the government simply took all of Embar's money to give them food? Don't that have a right to life as well? How about those unemployed who couldn't afford medical care? Right to life? Nope. Apparently, Embar's idea of a "right to life" begins at conception and ends at birth.

Dd

[calleagh]

D the reasons you cite are the very reasons that make me "waffle" on legislative action. deep inside i know it is wrong. it is murder. it is a lose/lose situation no matter how you slice it. i am not without compassion for the young unwed mother. it is easy to sit back and say "well you should have thought of that before you started spreading your legs" and all of the other smug bullshit that people say whenever someone does something and gets caught up. i have no answers that i am comfortable with. no i am not comfortable throwing the mother in jail unless it's one of the aforementioned lazy bitches that are using abortion as birth control. yeah.....i wouldnt lose any sleep over them going to the joint but i would lose a LOT of sleep over incarcerating a young teen scared to death in a situation that, to her, is dire.

poor lulu. sounds like you had a bad time of it in the first trimester. but, you are right......most of the time it's worth it.

select.....no pissing contest here. that was said to refute what you stated about stretching. most doctors dont even routinely perform an episiotomy any longer as it is not necessary in most normal births. but you do speak with that arrogance of "been there done that or heard about it" and you tend to take it as gospel whether there is supporting data or not. maybe i'm wrong and you just don't communicate effectively with the written word. i went back and reread your post and i still stand by what i said earlier. oh and keep the tampons. i had the oven removed

[Select]

I speak with conviction

I haven't been there or done that and don't plan to. But, I do know many women who have -we all do- and I take what hearing them say as experienced knowledge because they have "been there and done that" You're making your own experiences (and your daughter's) your gospel.

[Ddrak]

D the reasons you cite are the very reasons that make me "waffle" on legislative action. deep inside i know it is wrong. it is murder. it is a lose/lose situation no matter how you slice it. i am not without compassion for the young unwed mother. it is easy to sit back and say "well you should have thought of that before you started spreading your legs" and all of the other smug bullshit that people say whenever someone does something and gets caught up. i have no answers that i am comfortable with. no i am not comfortable throwing the mother in jail unless it's one of the aforementioned lazy bitches that are using abortion as birth control. yeah.....i wouldnt lose any sleep over them going to the joint but i would lose a LOT of sleep over incarcerating a young teen scared to death in a situation that, to her, is dire.

Actually, that's pretty close to my position. I absolutely detest the idea of people that use abortion for birth control - for fuck's sake, there's better and safer methods ANYWAY before you even get past the whole selfish point of view to the life of the baby. I just don't believe it's something the government should be involved in because it seems a rather binary decision to me: either it's murder or it isn't. If it's murder then women who get abortions and doctors who perform them are both murderers and should be sentenced as if they'd picked up a baby off the street, took it home and bashed it's head in with a brick. In death penalty states they should be eligible for lethal injection.

If you're not going to go with that, then you are either being hypocritical and saying a fetus is a lesser form of life (ie Embar's arguments fly out the window, though I'm pretty sure he does believe in the whole murder charge and isn't a hypocrite) or you're being pro-choice from the legislative point of view even if you find the act of abortion itself horrific in the extreme (which I actually do).

Dd

[Arkaron]

I notice Embar is still harping on his mistaken mantra that "all humans have a right to life". It's bullshit. How many homeless die each day that could have been saved if the government simply took all of Embar's money to give them food? Don't that have a right to life as well? How about those unemployed who couldn't afford medical care? Right to life? Nope. Apparently, Embar's idea of a "right to life" begins at conception and ends at birth.

Based on other posts I would guess that Embar's positions would be:

- homeless people who die probably did so by circumstances they could have changed, exception being the homeless who are not capable of holding a job.

- unemployed who cannot afford medical care should simply improve themselves enough to obtain work that will provide for medical care either through insurance or a good enough paycheck.

Is that pretty close?