The Official Abortion Thread

[Alluveal]

C'mon Alluveal. What you're describing is the same as PMS episode.

HAHAHAHA, and you personally know the difference, don’t you. Spoken like a self-proclaimed clueless male. This sentence alone nearly invalidated most of what you said after. Sorry. Try again.

But, yes, other women do have different experiences, but they all are in pain toward the end. They all are uncomfortable at some point. And they can’t just say, “Oh! I’m going to take a break! Tee hee!”

The discomfort is no reason to abort a child no. Absolutely not. Just like a live child running around and tearing your shit up is no reason to kill that child, though the thought might cross your mind in some comedic form once they reach the age of 2.

Comparing a baby/pregnancy to a chair? Not really working.

Honestly, Embar, I agree with most of your overall philosophy. I think that we, as humans, are defined by our humanity and our ability to show mercy to something or someone far less powerful than us. It’s just a shitty situation. I have absolutely no empathy for a woman who has an abortion because she chose her career first or can’t be bothered with a child. I don’t. And I think when you go into have an abortion for the 3rd time because you’re a f*ing idiot, they should force you to sterilize yourself. (But that really makes no sense either—politically, it’s just a nice fantasy.)

I can see what Select is saying. The woman has little choice when she becomes pregnant. Her options are to abort or keep or carry and adopt. Only three options and all include physical discomfort and pain (though the abortion after effects are far less in length—though the emotional pain can go on for a long long time.) The true choice is that you don’t fuck every asshole you see and think, “I won’t get pregnant,” even if you’re using BC. The 10 month old sitting across from me shoving Cheerios into her mouth was a baby conceived while I was on the pill. But, I was brought up to accept that any sex (even protected) might result in a child and you better damn well be ready if that happens. I wasn’t ready when I was pregnant, but I made myself ready by the time she was born.

The thing is, abortion has become so commonplace it seems. The Planned Parenthood I went to (to take my pregnancy test,) started shoving abortion pamphlets in my hand when I asked for the test. I remember giving them back and saying, “Umm, I want to keep the child if I’m pregnant.” The girl just looked at me like a deer in headlights.

Consider this then - if a fetus is a life and abortion is murder, do you ask that mothers who have an abortion be given the same penalty as other murders, ie a lethal injection in many states? How about 25 years imprisonment? Tell me - what's the punishment in your mind here?

It’s tough, DD. As for the above statement. I can name quite a few men who were tried for double murders when they killed their pregnant wife. When the child is taken away against a mother’s will (even when in the womb,) it can be considered murder. If a woman chooses it, it’s somehow ok? That’s a huge problem.

I fall in line with Calleagh in the end. You know it’s wrong, but you still feel for the young women. My issue is that abortion is usually thrown at them first and expected of them first—instead of showing them other options. I think every single woman who is going in for an abortion should have to look at an ultrasound of what they are getting rid of—heartbeat or not. It might make them think twice.

Another issue is that sex education in this country is a fucking joke. When the schools stop preaching abstinence and start dealing honest answers (i.e. birth control,) we might see a lot less teen pregnancy. Sure, as I said, birth control isn’t 100%, but it would cut back severely if these girls had better means and mind to protect themselves instead of thinking stupid crap like, “you can’t get pregnant on the first time.”

And hearing you guys talk about tearing and stitches. Eeesh. Makes me happy for that C-section I had. =D Now I just have a smiley face scar under my belly button.

[Partha]

The thing is, abortion has become so commonplace it seems. The Planned Parenthood I went to (to take my pregnancy test,) started shoving abortion pamphlets in my hand when I asked for the test. I remember giving them back and saying, “Umm, I want to keep the child if I’m pregnant.” The girl just looked at me like a deer in headlights.

This must be purely a perception thing, because in most US counties there aren't even places you can GO to have an abortion.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

The number of U.S. abortion providers declined by 2% between 2000 and 2005 (from 1,819 to 1,787). Eighty-seven percent of all U.S. counties lacked an abortion provider in 2005; 35% of women live in those counties.[

[calleagh]

I speak with conviction

I haven't been there or done that and don't plan to. But, I do know many women who have -we all do- and I take what hearing them say as experienced knowledge because they have "been there and done that" You're making your own experiences (and your daughter's) your gospel.

believe it or not i felt the same way long before my daughter was born. not sure if i would call it a gospel ( 4: something accepted or promoted as infallible truth or as a guiding principle or doctrine <took her words as gospel> <spreading the gospel of conservation — R. M. Hodesh>); it is merely a personal belief. i seldom ever speak about it because, like religion or spirituality, i keep my beliefs private. they are the only two topics which i am incapable of changing my mind about. i may not be able to articulate clearly what i mean at times but i know what i feel. my knowledge not only comes from myself it also comes from majoring in nursing with a specialization in obstetrics with an eye towards becoming a certified nurse midwife. no, i didn't graduate or finish my education but that does not negate what i did learn in the two years i studied. so, while i'm no expert, i'm not just another novice with an opinion either.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Let me ask you this (Dd, Select, Call, Allu) -

If a woman had an abortion. And for the sake of this argument, lets assume the pregncny isn't the result of rape or incest. Would you be ok with removing the right of that person to become pregnant again? Forced sterilization?

And I know this is just pure speculation, but don't you think if faced with THAT choice... yes you can have an abortion, but while we're there we're going to remove your uterus, or you can have the child. How many women do you think might opt to have the child (and then keep it, or put it up for adoption)? That still would leave the woman with a choice.

[Select]

If a woman had an abortion. And for the sake of this argument, lets assume the pregncny isn't the result of rape or incest. Would you be ok with removing the right of that person to become pregnant again? Forced sterilization?

I do not believe in forced sterilization. That goes against the whole thing of "her body is her own"

But... I'd give her a nice education about birth control. About how it's easier, cheaper, and less of a hassle.

Embar, between your wild statements and asking everyone else questions, are you going to answer mine?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Which ones, Select?

[Alluveal]

If a woman had an abortion. And for the sake of this argument, lets assume the pregncny isn't the result of rape or incest. Would you be ok with removing the right of that person to become pregnant again? Forced sterilization?

If it was their 3rd time because they're too lazy to use BC? I'd love for such a law to be in effect, but it's a bit tyrranical. =) It's just a personal (unreal) idea with me. I don't see it ever working in the real world.

And I know this is just pure speculation, but don't you think if faced with THAT choice... yes you can have an abortion, but while we're there we're going to remove your uterus, or you can have the child. How many women do you think might opt to have the child (and then keep it, or put it up for adoption)? That still would leave the woman with a choice.

First time? No. Repeat offender? I would be absolutely for that, but you'd have so many against it, you may as well try to flap your arms hard enough and hope you fly.

First timers (not that there's any way to track this unless you can tell someone's had an abortion when you examine her) should get a serious education on all aspects of what they are doing--in a way that they fully understand. Not preachy. Not religious oriented. Just the facts.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I think you missed the hypothetical... or maybe I missed your answer.

Allu - do you thhink there would more, less, or the same number of abortions, if an abortion involved the removal of the uterus? Do you think women, if faced with the choice of having their uterus' removed if they had an abortion, or carrying the child to term and preserving their right to procreate at a later time.. do you think that would slow down the rate of abortions here?

What would YOU do if that was how society balanced a woman's right to her body, and the responsibilities that come with the choice?

[Select]

That isn't fair to place procreation responsibility solely on the woman. It takes two to fucking tango. Punish both the men and the women if you're going to bother at all. This is the second time you've come off misogynist, Embar.

And I had asked if you were a parent.

[Embar Angylwrath]

That isn't fair to place procreation responsibility solely on the woman. It takes two to fucking tango. Punish both the men and the women if you're going to bother at all. This is the second time you've come off misogynist, Embar.

And I had asked if you were a parent.

You forget that the men don't have a choice in the matter of an abortion. It's soley the females perogative, isn't it. Are you willing to let men have a say in the matter? Yeah.. didn't think so. As long as abortion is solely the woman's choice, then she solely bears the responsibility and consequences of her actions (actually, thats not quite true.. she can hook the male for child support if she wants to keep it, but he doesn't.. is that fair?)

And no, I'm not a parent.

[Select]

You criticized me for being naive in the ways of parenting. What makes you any better or more informed? Age? I wouldn't think so since there are plenty of young mothers out there, barely older than myself who can do a decent job. Or maybe you feel so well informed on the subject because you babysat the kids of some relative for a weekend. So well informed -just like you are when it comes to PMS and pregnancy and how carrying a fetus for nine months is comparable to sitting in the uncomfy chair.

As long as abortion is solely the woman's choice, then she solely bears the responsibility and consequences of her actions

I disagree. She has a say because it's her body, but he did help get her into that state. Guys need to take just as much responsibility as women. They shouldn't be relieved of it just because there's a chance she may make a choice -Don't stick your dick in something that may make a decision you won't like. See, it goes both ways, especially if you've ever heard "Well, she should have just kept her legs closed." Both were required to create it. Both need to be responsible.

There's also the matter of rape, where pregnancy isn't a consequence of her actions; it is a consequence of someone else's actions.

I've always viewed it as a rule of "thirds" in terms of rights. Both the woman and man have a third of the right to the fetus because it takes both of them to create it. The woman gets the final third because it's her body the fetus is in.

[Ddrak]

Let me ask you this (Dd, Select, Call, Allu) -

If a woman had an abortion. And for the sake of this argument, lets assume the pregncny isn't the result of rape or incest. Would you be ok with removing the right of that person to become pregnant again? Forced sterilization?

Why on earth would I think that was a good idea? No - the government shouldn't be allowed to mutilate its citizens. I don't even see how this is relevant to the issue of abortion - it just sounds like the product of some sick mind to me.

Dd

[Kulaf]

I really don't understand Embar sometimes......the government doesn't have the right/duty/responsibility to carry out a death sentence.......but hell let's force women to get sterilized if they want an abortion.

/boggle

[Alluveal]

Allu - do you thhink there would more, less, or the same number of abortions, if an abortion involved the removal of the uterus? Do you think women, if faced with the choice of having their uterus' removed if they had an abortion, or carrying the child to term and preserving their right to procreate at a later time.. do you think that would slow down the rate of abortions here?

What would YOU do if that was how society balanced a woman's right to her body, and the responsibilities that come with the choice?

I don't know if the number of abortions would decrease, but in honesty, the idea is just going too overboard. I can snark about it and make jabs, but it's not realistic. Hypothetically, I think the number of abortions might decrease, but only when it's a woman who really does want children someday.

Would would I do if such a law existed. I'd damn well not be having a lot of sex.

There are a few other points I want to address. First, the man has no right when a woman has an abortion and I'm one who thinks this is total bullshit. If a man has sex and the woman gets pregnant (yes, I agree with Select, it takes two to make a baby,) then she decides to have an abortion, he has no say. None. Period. End of story. Even if he believes that what she is doing is murder 100%, then he would have to stand by and watch her "murder" his unborn child. Harrowing. I can't even imagine. I can't.

If the child is born and the pair aren't together anymore and the man did NOT want the child, the man also has little say in child support. His only option is to waive his parental rights instead of having a good portion of his paycheck taken.

I respectfully disagree with Select in that I'm someone who does believe that man+woman (read two people) make a baby. BUT, it's the woman who gets pregnant. Therefore, as a woman, you better believe I have been freakishly absolute about birth control. I've never had unprotected sex. EVER. PERIOD. I know that if I get pregnant, I have to carry the baby. I have to have the baby and after the baby comes, I do the majority of the work caring for that baby. Instead of saying that a man MUST take 50% responsibility, I say, "I have to take 100% myself because I am the ONLY PERSON I can rely on 100% of the time on this." Me. Me alone. A guy could use a condom, but what if he's a lunatic and pokes a hole in it to get ME pregnant. I have control over my uterus (during sex where both parties give consent--we're not taking rape.) I always take 100% of the responsibility. If he wants to throw his own in, that's great, but it's my body and I'll be damned if I put my future and likelihood in the hands of someone else on THAT LEVEL. Hell no. I'm covering myself.

Anyway, sorry to go off on that tangent here. Hope it made sense.

[Select]

Allu, I would never trust a man regarding birth control either. He can pay for most of our dinners since my birth control is costing me about $50 a month And he's buying the condoms, but I will be on my own protection. Just in case.

What I meant was he's equally responsible for the consequences and should take responsibility for the consequences: pregnancy. I still apply my thirds-rights rule, where in the end, the woman gets that extra third thus giving her control over what happens to that pregnancy.

[Select]

it just sounds like the product of some sick mind to me.

With all of Embar's off the wall statements his past few posts, I think he's going a little crazy with the crusade to "protect all life!" How many clinics have you bombed?

[Ddrak]

No - he's putting forward a hypothetical. I just don't know where he's going with it. It's got me curious though. He wants us all to agree that forcing a sterilization is a bad thing, and he's gonna hit us with some logical whammy over it I'm pretty sure.

Dd

[Select]

It's a stupid hypothetical and a bit crazy to think of such a thing. I still goes against my feelings of "her body is her own" Abortion if she so chooses. No sterilization unless she chooses it. Logical whammy me

[Rsak]

What I meant was he's equally responsible for the consequences and should take responsibility for the consequences: pregnancy.

If only that responsibility came with equal rights. Would be an interesting world to say the least.

[Harlowe]

I notice Embar is still harping on his mistaken mantra that "all humans have a right to life". It's bullshit. How many homeless die each day that could have been saved if the government simply took all of Embar's money to give them food? Don't that have a right to life as well? How about those unemployed who couldn't afford medical care? Right to life? Nope. Apparently, Embar's idea of a "right to life" begins at conception and ends at birth.

Based on other posts I would guess that Embar's positions would be:

- homeless people who die probably did so by circumstances they could have changed, exception being the homeless who are not capable of holding a job.

That doesn't make sense actually, because so many homeless people suffer from mental illness. I think the figure was something like 20% incapacitated by physical or mental illness, 40% with serious mental illness. Younger homeless people are often running away from abuse, so I don't believe that qualifies as people in circumstances they could have changed.

My stand on abortion? I wouldn't do it, but for each woman - it's their body, their choice what they want going on in it. My morality should have no bearing on it. However I'm against abortions being performed late-term. If the baby is viable outside the womb, then abortion shouldn't be allowed. She should be allowed to give birth to remove it, but not kill it. Until there is a way to harvest these unwanted children at any point in the pregnancy, I'll be pro-choice.

In a philosophical sense, if you want to outlaw abortions completely based on all potential life has rights, then you need to outlaw birth control pills, if the egg is fertilized and the pill just deters it from attaching to the uterine wall - you've aborted that potential life. It was a fertilized egg, it would have been a baby had it not been kicked out of the womb by your pill. The day after pill - same thing of course. It's just an early abortion.