Punisnment for Children / Discipline

[Alluveal]

I wasn't sure whether or not to put this under law or philosophy. I figure I would put it here.

So, spanking? Let's hear what you think. Ok? Or not ok?

How about whipping with a belt?

Punishing a child by making them eat tobasco sauce?

[Select]

If i wanted kids, this is the rough system I'd use. If one wasn't working with a particular behavior, I'd move to the next punishment. Anything not on there, I don't find acceptable. As the eldest of four, I've done everything up to number 4 while babysitting the siblings (which include an autistic child). Actually carrying (more like pushing) to the room was rare and reserved for extreme tantrums. Typically, I'd walk away and call the parents in a huff.

1) Positive reinforcement/reward system as opposed to punishments.
2) Scolding.
3) Taking away free time and favorite activities.
4) Making sit in a chair/room/corner, carrying/dragging there if need be.
5) A smack on the butt.
6) Full on spanking.
7) Full on ass whooping, (only for needlessly and selfishly harming a life).

Discussion throughout.

[Ddrak]

Use what works. I have no problems with spanking or even whipping with a belt so long as you do it appropriately. Obviously the belt would be an extremely rare occurrence that warranted such a reaction. Different kids respond to different things - some don't care too much about spanking but hate being sent to their room and some are the opposite.

I think feeding kids tobasco or other type of "feed them bad stuff" is kinda off though. Seems to send mixed messages in my mind.

Dd

[Alluveal]

See, I think using a belt is abuse. Spanking with your hand? A lot different. Why is it ok to strike a child with a piece of leather?

[Kulaf]

Bottom line for me is this.......you don't bargain with kids. It's your way or.......well there is no other f'ing way. Punishment cannot be on a escallalator because eventually your kids will push you to see how high they can ride the escallator before you give up.

And lastly........you don't have to kill your kids to get them to behave......you just have to make them think you will.

[Ddrak]

See, I think using a belt is abuse. Spanking with your hand? A lot different. Why is it ok to strike a child with a piece of leather?

How is it different? Either way is striking the child. It's just a matter of whether you're using human skin or animal skin. The thing about abuse is the mentality behind it, not necessarily the action. Hand, belt, stick, whatever - you do it to break the child's will, not to actually hurt them. If spanking with your hand isn't working then what else do you do? Let them win?

Like I said - it depends entirely on the kid and the situation.

Dd

[Alluveal]

I don't think that beating a child with a belt is all about "the mentality" behind it. There is a huge difference between giving a child a swat on the butt and giving a child welts on their ass from a belt.

I mean, just take a sock full of oranges and beat the shit out of a child. If it's on the ass and "done in the name of discipline" it's ok, right?

And this "depends on the child" is really a cop out. I agree that kids can be different in the approach, but I don't think that beating a child is the answer.

Any parent who has to resort to using a belt is either lazy, too narrow to turn from grandma and grandpa's way, too stupid or they really have convinced themselves that "they had it bad and they turned out perfectly ok, so I may as well beat my child into submission too."

You'd think as a society we actually were evolving away from caveman instincts and methods.

"Letting a child win" makes it sound like it's all a competition. Parents need to step up and be adults here, need to get involved instead of relying on fire and brimstone threats of ass woopins' to get their point. I mean, if you're in West Virginia, I guess that's one thing. To "allow a child" to push it to the point where you have to beat them with a belt. It sounds less like discipline and more like parental wounded ego to me.

[Select]

Punishment cannot be on a escallalator because eventually your kids will push you to see how high they can ride the escallator before you give up.

Works in this family and no one rides the escalator. Ever.

Bottom line for me is this.......you don't bargain with kids. It's your way or.......well there is no other f'ing way.

I hope you at least have a discussion with the child to understand their point of view, which definitely can be done without bargaining.

[Ddrak]

I don't think that beating a child with a belt is all about "the mentality" behind it. There is a huge difference between giving a child a swat on the butt and giving a child welts on their ass from a belt.

Belt or hand you can deliver just as much of a beating with either. You've switched your argument around now to assume a belt means leaving welts and a hand is just a "quick swat". In fact, you've just come around to my point of view that it *is* about the mentality behind it - you don't "beat" your child (and remember - that's the first time you used the word "beat" so it's your interpretation and not mine), you discipline them.

I mean, just take a sock full of oranges and beat the shit out of a child. If it's on the ass and "done in the name of discipline" it's ok, right?

Oh, don't be stupid. Beating the shit out of a child is never ok. I don't know why you've suddenly switched here and gone all dramatic about "beating" but I thought we were discussing discipline, which is measured and controlled, rather than "beating" which is by nature uncontrolled and over the top.

And this "depends on the child" is really a cop out. I agree that kids can be different in the approach, but I don't think that beating a child is the answer.

No one said beating. You're making it up.

Any parent who has to resort to using a belt is either lazy, too narrow to turn from grandma and grandpa's way, too stupid or they really have convinced themselves that "they had it bad and they turned out perfectly ok, so I may as well beat my child into submission too."

You'd think as a society we actually were evolving away from caveman instincts and methods.

Oh, grow up. "Belt" does not mean "beating". Get over it. It's a measured response - as Select put it, an elevator. Kids by nature will push you to see how far you will go before you give up. If they push you past spanking, what are you going to do? Give up? Let them know that they just have to sit through a spanking and they can do whatever they like?

"Letting a child win" makes it sound like it's all a competition. Parents need to step up and be adults here, need to get involved instead of relying on fire and brimstone threats of ass woopins' to get their point. I mean, if you're in West Virginia, I guess that's one thing. To "allow a child" to push it to the point where you have to beat them with a belt. It sounds less like discipline and more like parental wounded ego to me.

Parents *are* adults. However, kids are *not* adults. They are exploring and learning their world, and part of that learning is where the boundaries of authority are. If they find that the boundary is on their side and not the parent's side then you're not exactly teaching them good lessons for the rest of their life are you?

Dd

[Partha]

I mean, just take a sock full of oranges and beat the shit out of a child. If it's on the ass and "done in the name of discipline" it's ok, right?

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Also, where does white slavery come into the equation?

[Alluveal]

Oh, grow up. "Belt" does not mean "beating". Get over it. It's a measured response - as Select put it, an elevator. Kids by nature will push you to see how far you will go before you give up. If they push you past spanking, what are you going to do? Give up? Let them know that they just have to sit through a spanking and they can do whatever they like?

Ok, where did the remarks need to come in? Grow up? Is that necessary? I'm not sure I can point to anywhere in my post where I said, "grow up," or "don't be stupid."

Second, if they "push you past spanking" what's next? Belt? What's after the belt if they push past that? Open hand across the face? What's next if they push you past that? That argument makes absolutely no sense to me. None.

Again, it's not a competition. I've been around disciplinarians who have never had to resort to anything "past" spanking. That's a very ugly picture to me.

Spanking your child is not the same as punching your child in the face, but the way you make it sound, that's somewhere down the line "past spanking" if spanking doesn't work.

As for the term "beating" offer me some official definitions that don't place hitting a child with a belt (controlled or not) under the same roof? Perhaps in this instance, it does need to be about semantics.

I consider hitting a child with a leather strap to be abuse. That is my line. If I have really gone that far, I've personally failed as a parent.

I haven't switched my argument at all. Either you don't like the fact that hitting a child with a belt is considered child abuse by a good number of the population or you're just using deflective debating tactics to get away from an uncomfortable point. I'm sure you can goolgle quite a few cases in which parents have been brought up with charges of child abuse for using a belt (or shoe, or wooden spoon, take your pick.)

The whole point of going to the belt is to do what? Cause more pain. How is this in any way productive? Pain = discipline? If that's the case, that opens up big ole can of worms.

Children absolutely need boundaries, but as I stated, I have seen children thrive in a highly disciplined environment--none of them having to employ striking a child with a belt. I can't justify that. Even though I was spanked as a child, had a belt used on me (as a child,) a spoon, a shoe, a switch, I refuse to take on the mentality that because my parents did it, they were RIGHT in doing it. On the other hand, they did a lot right (that I definitely felt was unfair as a child, but see the benefit to now.) This just isn't one of them.

[Alluveal]

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Also, where does white slavery come into the equation?

Umm, no clue. Is this a white slavery tactic? The parents of a friend of mine used this method to punish her because it never left bruises. I have no idea where the practice comes from.

[Ddrak]

Ok, where did the remarks need to come in? Grow up? Is that necessary? I'm not sure I can point to anywhere in my post where I said, "grow up," or "don't be stupid."

If you're going to equate my comments with "beating" then I think I have the right to feel personally offended and respond in that manner. You posted two options, but then switched one out for "beating". That's not a reasonable argument tactic.

Second, if they "push you past spanking" what's next? Belt? What's after the belt if they push past that? Open hand across the face? What's next if they push you past that? That argument makes absolutely no sense to me. None.

Oh, but it does make sense to say if they push past being put in the corner that you spank? Come on, Lulu, you're just randomly picking a point on the slope without giving any sort of justification here. What do you think is the difference between striking a child on your bum so hard that it leaves welts whether you use your hand or a belt? I would classify both as having been pushed beyond controlled discipline and say that what you're doing isn't working. The only reason I'd use a belt/spoon/whatever is for the psychological impact, not the physical one.

Put it this way - if you have to hit them less and softer with a belt than your hand, why do you think a belt would be abuse but the hand isn't?

You keep saying it's not a competition. What are you going to do when the kid makes it a competition? You do know kids can do that, right? Just because you can say you know of kids that never had to be pushed "beyond spanking" doesn't make it true in every case. I know perfectly reasonable kids that were never spanked in their lives - does that mean you're a hideous monster for thinking about spanking at all? I can name lots of people that think that way too.

A belt isn't "past" spanking anyway. It's a form of spanking. Punching your child in the face is not a form of spanking. Shocking them with the live end of an electrical cord is not spanking. Putting them in the clothes dryer is not spanking. Using a wooden paddle on their bum because it causes fewer welts than your hand is spanking. Feeding them hot sauce is not spanking. See the difference? You use the *form* of spanking that works best for the lowest impact because the whole point is psychological and not physical.

My "definition" of beating is when you make it about the pain, not the discipline. Perhaps that what you see as using a strap and why it means you've failed as a parent if you do? I'd happily use a strap if it meant I had to hit softer and less and would consider that a success as a parent.

That's why I say you switched your argument when you made "using a strap" synonymous with "beating". The initial question wasn't about "beating" at all so when you played bait-and-switch and I called you on it, you had to backpedal and resort to some weird popularity argument ("good number of the population", "google quote a few cases", etc.). I'm simply saying that the form of spanking doesn't make it beating or not - that's a wholly independent scale. Your assumption that using a belt is to cause more pain is simply false and twisting your way into saying it is just means you're continuing with the bait-and-switch argument.

Dd

[Kulaf]

I hope you at least have a discussion with the child to understand their point of view, which definitely can be done without bargaining.

Let me give you an example of a "discussion" my mom had with me the first time I ever swore in front of her in public. It went something like.....here's the back of my hand to your mouth. Got anything else you wanna say?

The lesson I learned was never swear in front of my mom......and I never did while I was a child. And really only did one other time in my life and she started laughing at me when I did.

[Alluveal]

Oh, but it does make sense to say if they push past being put in the corner that you spank? Come on, Lulu, you're just randomly picking a point on the slope without giving any sort of justification here. What do you think is the difference between striking a child on your bum so hard that it leaves welts whether you use your hand or a belt? I would classify both as having been pushed beyond controlled discipline and say that what you're doing isn't working. The only reason I'd use a belt/spoon/whatever is for the psychological impact, not the physical one.

Then why didn't you state this in the first place? Putting it under the blanket of "mentality" and expecting people to come to YOUR exact meaning/definition on that (then calling someone stupid for not "GETTING" that immediately,) isn't exactly productive. I concede that the way you have just explained it is a different image than I had in my head. I wouldn't necessarily consider that abusive, no, but I still wouldn't employ that tactic. It's just not my thing.

Put it this way - if you have to hit them less and softer with a belt than your hand, why do you think a belt would be abuse but the hand isn't?

Technically, they're both abuse (we're getting into semantics here again, I know.) I would probably spank if it really came to that, though I would exhaust all options before that decision. Even though it WOULD still be abuse, my personal line is grabbing something else to spank a child with. Even if both are used with exactly the same pressure and without causing welts, etc. That's my line. Maybe that sounds arbitrary, but I'm ok with my choice.

You keep saying it's not a competition. What are you going to do when the kid makes it a competition? You do know kids can do that, right? Just because you can say you know of kids that never had to be pushed "beyond spanking" doesn't make it true in every case. I know perfectly reasonable kids that were never spanked in their lives - does that mean you're a hideous monster for thinking about spanking at all? I can name lots of people that think that way too.

I'm aware that kids "push your buttons" and "push their limits." But, when I say competition, I mean "I will WIN over you at all costs" and that it is more about the parent's EGO than anything else. Trust me, I've been in a position where you are disciplining a child and it's a game to them, and there's this voice in your head that says, "you little shit, this isn't funny. I AM THE PARENT and you just wounded my pride," but you put that aside and look at the long term goal.

A belt isn't "past" spanking anyway. It's a form of spanking. Punching your child in the face is not a form of spanking. Shocking them with the live end of an electrical cord is not spanking. Putting them in the clothes dryer is not spanking. Using a wooden paddle on their bum because it causes fewer welts than your hand is spanking. Feeding them hot sauce is not spanking. See the difference? You use the *form* of spanking that works best for the lowest impact because the whole point is psychological and not physical.

I was just addressing the comment you made that went something like, "what happens if spanking doesn't work? the child wins?" I see your POV, sure. I don't agree with it, though. It may be a subtle difference for me (or not,) but I don't agree, no.

That's why I say you switched your argument when you made "using a strap" synonymous with "beating". The initial question wasn't about "beating" at all so when you played bait-and-switch and I called you on it, you had to backpedal and resort to some weird popularity argument ("good number of the population", "google quote a few cases", etc.).

It's not a weird popularity argument. You're welcome to visit the parenting boards that I frequent to see that the majority of people don't agree with spanking (with the hand,) let alone using a strap, spoon, shoe, etc. I get heat for the fact that I think spanking can be ok. But, again, my line is the use of an outside object. I just don't agree with it. I think it then becomes more about pain (and not about discipline.) And (as I've stated,) maybe it really is a subtle difference in your eyes. It's really not in mine. While I concede that the methods that you clarified aren't as bad as I thought (and definitely not the same as "beating,") that doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to agree with using them myself.

I'm simply saying that the form of spanking doesn't make it beating or not - that's a wholly independent scale. Your assumption that using a belt is to cause more pain is simply false and twisting your way into saying it is just means you're continuing with the bait-and-switch argument.

You're giving me more credit than I deserve. Bait and switch is suggesting that I actually thought this shit out beforehand. The bottom line is that I consider hitting a child with an object to be a line I won't cross. I think I've ironed things out insofar as the miscommunication that was happening between us.

[Fobbon Lazyfoot]

Its much more effective to help your child understand and respect the rules than it is to teach them to fear the consequences.

Punishment does absolutely nothing if the child does not understand why the rule is there in the first place. Spanking your child for swearing isn't going to stop him or her from swearing when you're not around.

Simple cause/effect punishment and discipline is only effective when someone is not capable of understanding anything beyond simple cause and effect. This goes for pets and small children. Anything beyond that level and cause/effect punishment and discipline rapidly reaches a state of diminishing returns, and may even be retroactive in the case of rebellious teenagers.

It's like the old story about Aristotle and Galileo goes: convincing someone to do something is not the same as persuading them to do something. Real genius parenting is simultaneously getting your child to accept that what you want them to do is the most logical, most appropriate, and right thing to do, and yet knowing that they have no room to explore alternative options.

As far as belts vs. hands go.... when taken for face value, there is no difference. However, I do think that belts (or any other punishment instrument) start to enter the realm of abuse and are honestly less effective for punishment. Bringing in an inanimate object to serve as the punishment medium really changes the psychology of the experience. Just using your hand or whatever keeps the event focused between the child and you. Using a belt gives the punishment an ambiguous focal point - it seperates the punishment from the moral force or reasoning behind it. When that happens, the mentality behind the event doesn't matter. When pain becomes ambiguous, I think the line has been crossed to abuse.

I wonder....what's more abusive: yelling at a child for no reason, or hitting them with a belt after they kick the family dog? I would say the former, but that seems to contradict what I just said about belts...hmm...

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Now now children settle down ...

I came from a family where spanking was an acceptable form of punishment. My parents had a wooden dowel rod, it was "the spanking stick" and it hung on a nail in the kitchen of every home in plain sight, and you were told to go get the spanking stick. You're probably aware i come from a right wing conservative home, and so my parents used their best judgment. I was slapped once, but i was like 15 and i'm sure i deserved it. I was spanked and would do anything to get out of the spanking. As an older child i was grounded, and frankly it did nothing. I snuck out of the house, pushed my parents to their limits and i was always forgiven and came home with my tail between my legs (which will work in the other thread as well actually).

I spank my children, they are grounded, have time out , they receive positive reinforcement and i have smacked a child in the mouth before as well. Different techniques work better with some of my children then with the others. My oldest needs to have EVERYTHING taken away before she'll pay attention but i can and DO still spank her, simply yelling at my 2nd will put her into tears but she will receive a spanking too based on actions, my 3rd really needs positive reinforcement (i have a story to go along with this) and spankings and my youngest receives hand smacks, spankings and time outs due to his age.

My best friend in the world comes from East Tennessee, and she used a belt on her child, not very often, but if you told the little girl you were going to get the belt then she'd straighten right out. I did see it used once or twice when the threat alone did nothing, as a good parent you know that you have to back up your actions with words. She had free reign to punish my kids as she would her own, and while she never did more then give the children a smack on the hand i did use a belt on them once that i can remember ever. I don't like it, it doesn't fit my parenting style and i deem it to be a bit excessive. She used to say "I'm gonna beat you with the belt if you don't stop it" by beat she meant spank, and the terms were interchangeable to her along with whooping her child. It's mostly because of where she came from, i never saw anything close to inapproperiate, even though the term was being used

The bag of oranges ? I'd be the first person on the phone to CPS ! The Tabasco sauce ? I deem that to be abusive as well. I have no problems with washing a child mouth out with soap, it tastes nasty but it makes a point then it's over, the Tabasco sauce is cruel and it can't be gotten rid of easily. My ex husbands wife employs this tactic with her son (who from what i've seen, and of course it's not as if i spend a large amount of time with him, but he's never been anything less then terribly kind and polite but i'm sure he's no angel either) as well as screaming at him and revoking any and all his privileges, 9 times out of 10 when the kids come home on weekends he wasn't allowed to do anything, and from what i can tell it's from minor offenses (the same best friend met her before i did when they were still living in Texas and she told me she's a perfectly nice person, but she treats her kid like crap, from my observations i agree and she treats my kids like crap, and the next time she opens her mouth and bitches at them when i'm around she's going to get it...)... anyway the point is that i told the 2 of them in no uncertain terms that if i EVER heard about hot sauce being put into my kids mouths as punishments i'd be calling CPS myself, it's cruel and its not necessary.

My children are under the impression i'd come across the table at them should they misbehave to a certain point, and i have instilled that fear without actually having to do anything to prove it, however it makes my 12 year old think about what she's going to say, or very immediately regret something she has just said. I'm beginning to get into the difficult years of the snitty snarky comments, the cutting of the eyes and the muttering under the breath. I haven't quite decided yet how i'm going to handle it, but i'm sure i can be creative. The mother's who have made their children stand on the street with signs ? I think those kids got just what they deserved, it wasn't cruel, it was embarrassing, which to a teenager is a fate worse then death, and i felt the situations were handled (mostly) appropriately.

I don't think there's a fine line between spanking, and beating your child. I think talking to a 2 year old is unreasonable and the child needs actions to go along with words. Even my 2 year old knows what "do you need a spanking" means, and he will say no, and behave (for the next 45 seconds). I think various ages and children demand different forms of punishment, but i think it's certainly ok to spank your child. Ever been to the grocery store and seen the kid kicking and screaming and pulling things off the shelves and throwing stuff all over the place and the mother just looks at the child and says "No no Johnny, thats not how we behave" but basically ignores the situation ? Those are the children who need someone to grab them by arm, turn them around, give them a nice hard smack on the ass and make THEM pick up the mess... but it'll never happen, the parents are ineffective at parenting that particular child. It takes a village to raise a child used to be the neighborhood philosophy, and everyone's kids were treated as equals, and they all got punished by various parents. Now if you so much as tell another person's child not to throw rocks they'll call CPS on you and report you for neglect or abuse or god only knows what.

Fobbon is correct, you need to explain to your child why something they did isn't appropriate, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't back it up with something a little more substantial.It's sort of like the biting back a biter mentality. Some people will encourage this as a form of reprimand and some will tell you what an abusive monster you are. Smaller children especially don't realize the pain they inflict, through stabbing with a fork, biting, hitting etc, and when you show them that what they've done causes pain, then they're able to make a connection from the action to the pain. You explain to your child that biting hurts (Mommy, sister, whomever) and bite them back. I have NEVER seen a child bite back after having been bitten, so long as you explain to the child, and then again, back your words up with actions. It's reasonable and it makes sense. Just explaining to the child that biting hurts doesn't teach them anything, hasn't shown them anything and they still don't understand WTF you're talking about.

You have to be able to differentiate between abuse, and suggestive forms of punishment, and i think this is where many parents fail. Lulu;s child may just need to be explained that the oven is hot and not to touch it or she'll get burned which will hurt very badly, but her sisters child might need to be told the same thing, and then have their hand smacked because they then proceed to touch the closed door 5 times ! Smacking the childs hand is really preventive further pain or punishment or neglect by nipping the problem in the bud, so the child doesn't OPEN the oven to touch the inside to find out of mommy's lying. I assure you, children do things like that all the time...

[Harlowe]

Holy wall of text.

I agree with Select on punishment/discipline.

[Garrdor]

My parents pretty much didn't spank.

I was spanked maybe once or twice. It took alot out of my dad to do that. My mom has never laid a hand on me. I was burned with a curling iron by a certian step-parent for refusing to go to church, though.

I've decided to not have kids, so I guess my input is invalid.

All i can say is: Establishing violence early on in a childs life will teach them that it's ok to use violence to punish others. It's a vicious cycle.

[Lurker]

Establishing violence early on in a childs life will teach them that it's ok to use violence to punish others.

QFE

If you have to make your kids think you'll kill them or that you'll leap across the table at them, you have failed as a parent. Quickly resorting to violence, like backhanding someone across the mouth when verbally correcting their language would work, is a sign of lazy parenting.

Discussing correct behavior and the consequences of their actions with your kids is not bargaining. Debating the details of the punishment after the fact, or whether to follow through at all, is bargaining and the part most parents fail at.

It's very simple. Never threaten a punishment you can't follow through on. Always follow through on the punishment.

I also agree with Select. If you are consistent from the beginning you'll never have to get past step 4.