Fundamental Differences

Kulaf · Post by **Kulaf** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:23 am

Lurker wrote:None of this has to do with "victim mentality". That was your term. It doesn't apply to someone who can't get health coverage in our broken system.

Can't get health coverage......or chooses not to get it. Most people could cancel their mobile phone contract and afford health coverage. Or cancel their Cable. If you require health coverage......prioritize.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:21 pm

Right... cause the only people without healthcare are the ones that refuse to buy it.

Select · Post by **Select** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:34 pm

Can't get health coverage......or chooses not to get it. Most people could cancel their mobile phone contract and afford health coverage. Or cancel their Cable. If you require health coverage......prioritize.

I have none of that and no car. Even if I put all my spare hours not spent in school into working at the pharmacy, I could not afford health coverage to cover my meds. Meds that keep myself healthy, functional, and able to work in the first place - You know, not disabled. Which is why I am thankful that the parents' plan lets me stay on until I finish school. But as soon as I graduate? Unless I get a decent paying job right off the bat, I'm pretty fuckin' worried. Also, from talking to people, I've been told that if there's a gap between coverage, MS will probably be considered a preexisting condition, which makes things a hell of a lot harder. How am I supposed to afford the overlap? How are other students? Like Arky said, not everyone has options.

So, no, not all of us 'choose not to'; a lot of us can't. And a lot of us are recent graduates in a shitty market. :\ Like my friend who just graduated, is working as a pizza-maker while he searches the shaky market, and was recently diagnosed with Crohn's disease. He's working as much as they'll give him, has no insurance, and currently can't afford any.

Fallakin Kuvari · Post by **Fallakin Kuvari** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:51 pm

Maybe you should have compassionate parents that buy you a health coverage plan for yourself and pay for it until you're financially able to do so...

Select · Post by **Select** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:53 pm

I hope you're being sarcastic. Not everyone's parents are able to do that, let alone willing.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:59 pm

How would that work anyway when you are forced off your parents plan and then refused new insurance because of a pre-existing condition?

Taxious · Post by **Taxious** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:01 pm

Select, that sucks about your insurance/job/MS situation. I managed to pay for health insurance as a student with some loans but don't know how I would have done it any other way with the job I had at the time.

Select wrote:Like my friend who just graduated, is working as a pizza-maker while he searches the shaky market, and was recently diagnosed with Crohn's disease.

My mother has Crohn's disease and has gone through some rough times with it. Sorry to hear about your friend, I hope he can get some help with it before it flares up.

Select · Post by **Select** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:04 pm

Debt is already way above 150,000 with loans for school. :\ Rates have gone way up, too; right now, it's dangerous to take out anything new. Friends have recent rates at 14%. I'm lucky most of mine sit at ~6%.

And he's had a lot of flare ups already. Before his diagnosis, he had to grab a doctor by the arm when the doc wasn't taking his pain seriously and went to leave the examination room. He grabbed the doc, choked out how much pain he was in, and begged to be taken seriously.

Being young sucks.

Fallakin Kuvari · Post by **Fallakin Kuvari** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:28 pm

Select wrote:I hope you're being sarcastic. Not everyone's parents are able to do that, let alone willing.

I actually wasn't being sarcastic. They know your situation as well as you do, it would only make sense for them to do that for you given your condition.

I understand that not everyone's parents are able to do that. Your parents should very well be capable, though.

Select · Post by **Select** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:30 pm

I understand that not everyone's parents are able to do that. Your parents should very well be capable, though.

How would that work anyway when you are forced off your parents plan and then refused new insurance because of a pre-existing condition?

^ To prevent that from happening? Mom certainly couldn't; she's barely making ends meet. Dad has four children, if my 150,000+ debt wasn't an indicator of capability. I cannot expect them to pay for a whole new plan for me. As a child on their current plan, it is far cheaper than a whole new plan for an adult.

Edit: And the focus shouldn't be on my situation or what you as an outsider think my parents can afford. I used myself and my friend as examples of people who really "can't afford it". My friend and I are not so different from the typical college graduate. More expensive, yes, but every college graduate has health needs.

Taxious · Post by **Taxious** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:34 pm

I'm still trying to understand Kulaf/Embar's stance on this. I see health care as a basic service that everyone should have, not an "extra" that only people with enough extra spending money should get. I just imagine them associating it with having a 50" TV or something, "if you work as hard as I do, you can have this extra luxury too!"

The current system seems rather barbaric to me, but I guess I just don't get it. Freeloader or not, I think everyone should be able to receive medical care. If that means me paying higher taxes, so be it - what's the big deal? If it's naive for me to not care about paying a little extra $$ every month so that other people can get help when they need it, I guess that's what I am. I don't feel that it's right to deny someone else's health just because I want to afford a more luxurious life for myself.

Different set of moral codes is what it boils down to, I suppose.

Kulaf · Post by **Kulaf** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:44 pm

I'd love to put some of you on a reality show where you have limited resources and have to survive......and then put in some people who refuse to work and see if when it came right down to it you have the courage of your convictions.

Fallakin Kuvari · Post by **Fallakin Kuvari** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:44 pm

Select wrote:
I understand that not everyone's parents are able to do that. Your parents should very well be capable, though.

How would that work anyway when you are forced off your parents plan and then refused new insurance because of a pre-existing condition?
^ To prevent that from happening? Mom certainly couldn't; she's barely making ends meet. Dad has four children, if my 150,000+ debt wasn't an indicator of capability. I cannot expect them to pay for a whole new plan for me. As a child on their current plan, it is far cheaper than a whole new plan for an adult.

You father is a lawyer, correct?

4 kids or not I'm sure he has the extra income to make a special case for providing healthcare for his daughter after she is no longer on his plan since she has a medical condition.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:46 pm

What you're doing is imposing your moral code on others. Is that fair? What other services are you willing to pay for "freeloaders"? If citizens want the benefit of participating a society and having certain needs met, don't you think they have an obligation to that society?

Harlowe · Post by **Harlowe** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Kulaf wrote:
Lurker wrote:None of this has to do with "victim mentality". That was your term. It doesn't apply to someone who can't get health coverage in our broken system.
Can't get health coverage......or chooses not to get it. Most people could cancel their mobile phone contract and afford health coverage. Or cancel their Cable. If you require health coverage......prioritize.

This is sort of like the Clinton era "Welfare Queen" arguments. You picture everyone (or the majority) of people without healthcare as just people not prioritizing their expenses.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Select wrote:
I understand that not everyone's parents are able to do that. Your parents should very well be capable, though.

How would that work anyway when you are forced off your parents plan and then refused new insurance because of a pre-existing condition?
^ To prevent that from happening? Mom certainly couldn't; she's barely making ends meet. Dad has four children, if my 150,000+ debt wasn't an indicator of capability. I cannot expect them to pay for a whole new plan for me. As a child on their current plan, it is far cheaper than a whole new plan for an adult.

Edit: And the focus shouldn't be on my situation or what you as an outsider think my parents can afford. I used myself and my friend as examples of people who really "can't afford it". My friend and I are not so different from the typical college graduate. More expensive, yes, but every college graduate has health needs.

If you were covered on a plan held by your parents, insurance companies typically extend coverage to those kids still in college, up to age 25.

Kulaf · Post by **Kulaf** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:51 pm

Because I work with a TON of them. Kids in their 20's with mobile phones with unlimited calling, texting and internet access......go home and play xbox 360 on their HD TV's.....wearing designer footwear and driving new cars and when I ask them..."Hey did you sign up for healthcare and the 401K?" I get......Man I can't afford that.

Kulaf · Post by **Kulaf** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:55 pm

And with respect to Welfare....I think I am pretty much on record and hating the program. Not because it gives people money for nothing......but because it gives them just enough money to stay on welfare and doesn't give them the oppotunity to get OFF welfare. I am all about creating opportunity. If you tell me it would take 5 Trillion dollars to have universal healthcare I would say take 3 Trillion and put it in educational programs and economic investment opportunities that would better people and create job opportunities so they could afford their own healthcare.

Enabling people to do nothing and continue to receive more and more from the government for doing said nothing is just a path to ruin.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:55 pm

Harlowe wrote:
Kulaf wrote:
Lurker wrote:None of this has to do with "victim mentality". That was your term. It doesn't apply to someone who can't get health coverage in our broken system.
Can't get health coverage......or chooses not to get it. Most people could cancel their mobile phone contract and afford health coverage. Or cancel their Cable. If you require health coverage......prioritize.
This is sort of like the Clinton era "Welfare Queen" arguments. You picture everyone (or the majority) of people without healthcare as just people not prioritizing their expenses.

According to some studies, a good portion of those uninsured are uninsured by choice, not by circumstance.

However, another argument, the one put forth by Perry, is that a large number of those people are voluntarily without health insurance.

For example, of that 45.6 million people, the Census Bureau said that 9.1 million, or 20 percent, were living in a household earning more than $75,000 per year. Certainly, the vast majority of those 9.1 million people could afford health insurance if they wanted it.

An additional 8.5 million, or 18.6 percent, were living in a household earning between $50,000 and $74,999 a year. Many of those people could also afford health insurance.

That means nearly 40 percent of those 45.6 million people are living in households that could afford health insurance.

In fact, only 13.5 million, or 29.7 percent, are living in households earning less than $25,000 per year.

http://www.limaohio.com/articles/health ... rance.html

Select · Post by **Select** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:56 pm

You father is a lawyer, correct?

He is a damn fine lawyer but he is not Bill Gates. 4 children are expensive as shit. I cannot expect him to take on that burden. I need to figure something out. Perhaps if I don't get a nice job off the bat after school and when I'm able to work 40 hours a week at a low paying job, he might be able to contribute a little. It's unknown at the moment and again, I cannot expect that heavy expense from him.

If you were covered on a plan held by your parents, insurance companies typically extend coverage to those kids still in college, up to age 25.

I graduate next May. Coverage goes kaput.

Because I work with a TON of them. Kids in their 20's with mobile phones with unlimited calling, texting and internet access......go home and play xbox 360 on their HD TV's.....wearing designer footwear and driving new cars and when I ask them..."Hey did you sign up for healthcare and the 401K?" I get......Man I can't afford that.

Whatever you work with, that is not everyone.

When was the last time you visited an inner city? Middle aged people working two jobs and still barely making ends meet? Take a stint at my pharmacy, the main provider for the downtown area here. There's a lot of struggle.

Brell Rants

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