Fundamental Differences

[Kulaf]

I put the majority of the blame on the borrower.....not all of the blame and not on every borrower. That is the difference you fail to grasp. If there is no market for a good.....no demand....then there will be no product. All of you who think it is a right to own a home push for lower income riskier buyers to be able to get one and then act all shocked when the thing goes tits up. Greed is a two way street Lurker.....you know it.....you just won't admit it.

[Lurker]

There's a key fact you keep ignoring because it doesn't fit your distorted world view.

There was no widespread market for those loans until the banks made one. They used those risky loans to target people that were never a fit for them because their traditional loans and refinancings were in decline. They announced that themselves in real time before the crisis blew up in their face. It was in their annual reports. Nobody forced the bankers into anything. They thought they were printing money, risk free.

Greed is a two way street. But you look at a problem that was almost entirely created by the financial industry and then try to blame the borrowers because some of them were greedy or stupid.

You keep proving my point.

[Kulaf]

LOL! Yeah, which didn't counter anything I've been talking about and neither did what I was obviously linking for a reason. That's the point. You aren't making one.

Your claim was people dragging their feet choosing a clinic or doctor, which isn't supported by anything you've posted.

So you posted something that shows the average time to get to see a doctor as a brand new patient is three weeks for a FP and that somehow supports your position? I can't wait to hear how any of that data supports your position.

[Kulaf]

There's a key fact you keep ignoring because it doesn't fit your distorted world view.

There was no widespread market for those loans until the banks made one. They used those risky loans to target people that were never a fit for them because their traditional loans and refinancings were in decline. They announced that themselves in real time before the crisis blew up in their face. It was in their annual reports. Nobody forced the bankers into anything. They thought they were printing money, risk free.

Greed is a two way street. But you look at a problem that was almost entirely created by the financial industry and then try to blame the borrowers because some of them were greedy or stupid.

You keep proving my point.

So if nobody forced the Bankers......who forced the borrowers?

[Lurker]

You implied the bankers were forced to offer risky loans. That's a lie.

[Kulaf]

Well in places like CA they were certainly forced to offer ARM's at a greater percentage because of FHA guidelines on max values of home loans that FHA would back. But you knew that.....right?

[Lurker]

Which wouldn't have been an issue in the first place if the banks hadn't used the riskier loans to target people that were a poor fit for them.

[Harlowe]

LOL! Yeah, which didn't counter anything I've been talking about and neither did what I was obviously linking for a reason. That's the point. You aren't making one.

Your claim was people dragging their feet choosing a clinic or doctor, which isn't supported by anything you've posted.

So you posted something that shows the average time to get to see a doctor as a brand new patient is three weeks for a FP and that somehow supports your position? I can't wait to hear how any of that data supports your position.

My position that it takes forever to get into doctors not equaling living in a shithole? Sure it does. You don't have to live in a shithole to have to wait. It certainly doesn't support that people are dragging their feet choosing doctors.

I posted that to show it's not unusual to have to wait a long time to see a doctor. Your point was that people drag their feet choosing one, which isn't supported by anything you've posted.

[Kulaf]

Again you illustrate your lack of understanding. The CA home market was appreciating at an accelrated rate. And that only happens in CA when homes are sold or refinanced. So people really resist refinancing unless they NEED the money because their tax assessment is going to go up. And because the CA market was appreciating so quickly mortgage companies needed to come up with ways for people to afford a home. It wasn't possible anymore for someone to come in with 20% down on a 700k home which is pretty much just an average home in most parts of CA. So you had ARM's making up the difference and then taking a fee to subordinate to the 1st position loan. The issue came about when the market started to dry up and people were fleeing from CA which caused a huge glut of homes. Then the people who were in bad shape had no way of even selling their home for what they owed because of the flood of homes on the market from people leaving CA. Once they started to fail you had the secondary market literally collapse in a matter of 6 months as they could no longer get lines of credit from bigger banks who were dealing with their own issues.

So if the homes weren't being flipped at an accelerated rate the market doesn't appreciate at an accelerated rate. Now you could make the arguement that the lenders should have just started telling people no. I frankly I would agree with you. Clearly the borrowers were not going to reign in their own greed and needed some kind of wall to stop them and that is where yes the financial industry failed to protect itself by stopping the greed on the demand side.

[Kulaf]

LOL! Yeah, which didn't counter anything I've been talking about and neither did what I was obviously linking for a reason. That's the point. You aren't making one.

Your claim was people dragging their feet choosing a clinic or doctor, which isn't supported by anything you've posted.

So you posted something that shows the average time to get to see a doctor as a brand new patient is three weeks for a FP and that somehow supports your position? I can't wait to hear how any of that data supports your position.

My position that it takes forever to get into doctors not equaling living in a shithole? Sure it does. You don't have to live in a shithole to have to wait. It certainly doesn't support that people are dragging their feet choosing doctors.

I posted that to show it's not unusual to have to wait a long time to see a doctor. Your point was that people drag their feet choosing one, which isn't supported by anything you've posted.

But the data you posted shows how long it takes io get to see a doctor you have never seen before. So basically you supported my side with your data. If you had posted data showing how long it takes to see your current doctor and it was still that long then you would have supported your point.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

There was no widespread market for those loans until the banks made one.

False, there was no widespread market for those loans until the Government mandated there should be one.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Ok we are talking GP's here, not specialists. Again i will ask for information if you feel comfortable giving it.....were you referred to the specialist by your plan physician?

I didn't have a GP at that time yet. My insurance had kicked in about 2 weeks prior to the injury and I hadn't been able to get in with a GP because of the wait, which was about (SURPRISE!) 6-8 weeks for the first visit if I stayed within my insurance network. I made the appointment with the specialist after making the initial appointment with a potential GP, and saw the specialist first.

[Kulaf]

Ok that makes sense to me. The wait to see that first doctor is nasty. Once you are in the network though my experience has been that things go faster with a referral.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

And without going into much detail, I will say the injury was mildly serious. Not life threatening in any way and no real risk of permanent damage, but it was extremely painful and a hindrance to my daily activities (Including and especially work).

[Lurker]

There was no widespread market for those loans until the banks made one.

False, there was no widespread market for those loans until the Government mandated there should be one.

Can you link to the Government mandate?

I'm sure you aren't thinking it was the CRA, since that would be stupid, but I can't for the life of me remember what other theories were floating around the wingnutosphere.

[Harlowe]

But the data you posted shows how long it takes io get to see a doctor you have never seen before. So basically you supported my side with your data. If you had posted data showing how long it takes to see your current doctor and it was still that long then you would have supported your point.

No, your side was that people were being lazy not that "oh it takes a long time to see a doctor for the first time". If that was ever your point, there wouldn't be a discussion. I was pointing out that it isn't unusual to wait a long time to see a doctor - it doesn't mean you live in a shithole area. This conversation wasn't revolving around you, you just hopped into it to say that it's the patient's fault for dicking around picking a clinic/doctor.

So yet again, no it didn't support that.

[Embar Angylwrath]

There was no widespread market for those loans until the banks made one.

False, there was no widespread market for those loans until the Government mandated there should be one.

I'd like to see you link to said "mandate". Money from all over the world was chasing securitized mortgages. Unless the govnerment is buying something, it can't make a market.

[Kulaf]

But the data you posted shows how long it takes io get to see a doctor you have never seen before. So basically you supported my side with your data. If you had posted data showing how long it takes to see your current doctor and it was still that long then you would have supported your point.

No, your side was that people were being lazy not that "oh it takes a long time to see a doctor for the first time". If that was ever your point, there wouldn't be a discussion. I was pointing out that it isn't unusual to wait a long time to see a doctor - it doesn't mean you live in a shithole area. This conversation wasn't revolving around you, you just hopped into it to say that it's the patient's fault for dicking around picking a clinic/doctor.

So yet again, no it didn't support that.

My point was:

"I think the majority of the delay for most people is that when they get on their employers health plan and are told they need to choose a doctor......never do, until something happens."

How have you in any way refuted that? It is always going to take longer to get in to see a doctor for whom you are not an accepted patient......as pointed out by the survey you linked.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Surely not CRA as it was originally intended, but the changes made in the 90's in conjunction with the Gramm Leach Bliley Act (GLB) had a part to play in it.

I believe there was also a lawsuit that we discussed in another thread (it may have been on another one of my forums, I'll do some digging around).

[Lurker]

You mean the discussion that highlighted what a racist you are? Why don't you re-read that one and try to remember what the lawsuit was actually about.

As for the Community Reinvestment Act, it had nothing to do with the subprime crisis. The percentage of loans and refinances issued by banks under CRA jurisdiction have been declining for over a decade. Can you explain how the CRA is responsible when over 80% of subprime loans were made by financial institutions that aren't bound by the CRA? Or how it's to blame when the CRA covered banks issued a smaller percentage of subprime loans than the industry as a whole?

This thread is about fundamental differences. One of them seems to be that wingnuts can get burned with disinformation from the same sources over and over and over, and they keep going back for more expecting a different result. They also continue to hold the same beliefs even when the "information" they based that belief on turns out to be false.