Reconciliation

[Lurker]

You seem to have completely missed the point. Nice job.

Try looking at question 6 and 7 from the Newsweek poll you linked.

The reason that poll came out 1 day before the article I linked (1 day!!!!), was because the article was based on the fucking poll, moron.

No, really?

Man, I totally missed that.

Obviously, you did, although I'm sure you'll lie and deny it. (Fallakin: What possible reason would I have to lie!!! Lurker: To save face, moron.)

I said the public is confused and posted a Newsweek article which showed the public is against Obama's reform until they find out what's actually in the reform. You made a post that polling showed the public is against reform, even including a Newsweek poll that came out 1 day (1 day!!!) before the article I linked. Question six and seven of that very poll were the basis of the article and proved the point I was making.

You're a moron.

[Partha]

Protip: maybe you should look at those two sentences and really investigate the class systems of socialist countries.

You missed the real point, which is that America has just as much of a class system as a 'socialist' one. Of course, people like Embar viciously deny it while striving to make the upper classes. They are hypocrites, but that's not new.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Protip: maybe you should look at those two sentences and really investigate the class systems of socialist countries.

You missed the real point, which is that America has just as much of a class system as a 'socialist' one. Of course, people like Embar viciously deny it while striving to make the upper classes. They are hypocrites, but that's not new.

In your definition, every society has a class system. So lets run with that, shall we?

In the US class system, members of any class are free to move through the stratification. If one is born into a class (in Partha's world view, I would have been born into a lower class, son of a trash hauler, poor by any measure). Yet the US class system allowed me to move up (or down) in the class strata. I moved up through education and hard work, and sacrafice. I've sen people born into a higher "class" move down through personal decisions like refusing to get a higher education, substance abuse, and crime.

My point.. the US "class" system is individually self-imposed. And before you start spouting off about racial infulences in Partha's "class system", check yourself about the numbers of Asians able to circumvent the so-called "class system", the number of Hispanics that are climbing their way out of lower classes, and the number of whites that are falling into poverty.

Partha, you are a fool and a moron if you think the US has a hard floor on social stratification. This isn't India. In fact, Obama is a great example of how personal choices, hard word work and education can move someone through the social strata.

If you're bitter because you're in some dead-end job and stagnating... well thats on. You're a white male in a society that favors white males. If you don't have the drive, education or smarts to make it in the US... you certainly deserve what you have. You earned it.

[Ddrak]

Well, Partha and Fallakin were talking about socialist nations (though I'd be interested to know which nations they were calling "socialist"), not India etc. which do have a real caste/class system.

It's not as easy to move up in the US as it is in other developed nations. Education is a big issue - the cost of a college education makes it very unattractive for low income families to send their kids to get a decent one. High income families can afford the top colleges, which gives better contacts, better offers and better returns for the children. Coming out of school with the equivalent of a home loan isn't really the right way to encourage a smarter and more productive nation.

The other issue with the US is the lack of a safety net. For everyone that has made it (and props to Embar for doing so), there's others who have worked just as hard that missed a turn of luck here and there and found themselves below their starting point with credit ratings blown and no real way to pick themselves back up again. Having a nation where the vast majority of the population is one major disease away from complete bankruptcy really doesn't foster free movement between "classes".

In the developed world, the US has the biggest spread of incomes. It's an interesting mix of boom and bust, wild success and abject misery. The question is where to focus. Do you prop up the success stories while rubbing salt into the wounds of the failures or do you hamper success to take some of the sting out of failure?

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

You're a moron.

Says the moron that completely missed the sarcasm.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Protip: maybe you should look at those two sentences and really investigate the class systems of socialist countries.

You missed the real point, which is that America has just as much of a class system as a 'socialist' one. Of course, people like Embar viciously deny it while striving to make the upper classes. They are hypocrites, but that's not new.

Embar already touched on this, but I'll drive the point home. In the US as opposed to a "socialist" country you are more able to freely cross the class lines, if you have the drive and desire.

Most socialist countries are set up much like they are in '1984'. You have your Leader surrounded by an "Inner Party", a small "Outer Party" to help push your agenda and make it seem popular and then "Proles" (i.e. people who are too poor or too "stupid" for the country to care about, other than to keep them working and fed so there is no sort of uprising).

China is a prime example.

[Partha]

If one is born into a class (in Partha's world view, I would have been born into a lower class, son of a trash hauler, poor by any measure).

I find it telling that Embar seems to think a member of a unionized profession who likely had good pay and benefits is 'poor by any measure'.

My point.. the US "class" system is individually self-imposed.

That's only true at the extreme ends. As Ddrak noted, the economic barriers to entry into well paying jobs are generally not available to the lower classes - college slots are not as widely available as people pretend, aid has been shrinking for at least a generation, and as many of the board members can attest, even a college degree is not the guarantee it was 30 years ago of a secure job. The studies have shown that income mobility in the United States is not as large as in other countries, mostly because of the relative ease in which you can lose it all here on such things as bad health compared to countries with a fully developed national welfare system.

Partha, you are a fool and a moron if you think the US has a hard floor on social stratification.

When your success rate in moving from bottom is ~2.5%, and your rate of falling from top to bottom is double that, I'd say there's a pretty good indication that it's not nearly as flexible as you'd like to believe.

If you're bitter because you're in some dead-end job and stagnating... well thats on. You're a white male in a society that favors white males. If you don't have the drive, education or smarts to make it in the US... you certainly deserve what you have. You earned it.

Actually, I'm one of the ones who moved up a quintile from what my parents did. But your continued butthurt amuses me.

[Ddrak]

In the US as opposed to a "socialist" country you are more able to freely cross the class lines, if you have the drive and desire.

Interestingly, the US has a higher Gini index than China does.

Dd

[Lurker]

You're a moron.

Says the moron that completely missed the sarcasm.

So predictable. You weren't being a moron, you were just joking!

Ok, which was sarcasm? The post where you made a fool of yourself by completely missing the point, or the one where you implied that didn't happen?

[Embar Angylwrath]

@ Partha

Dad wasn't in a union.. had no health benefits, no pension, etc. We were dirt poor in the midwest.

As to you moving up a quintile from your parents... good for you. You (and I) are proof that people in the US can move through the strata.

[Lurker]

Nobody in American politics or on this board (with the possible exception of Kucinich) is recommending we move from capitalism to socialism.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I don't understand his ire at all, the Dem's have been (almost) completely disorganized and inept with regard to pushing things through. It's like crying about being put in harms way at a 3D movie.

So what's your point Harlowe? That we shouldn't worry about any legislation the Dems are working on because they can't push it through? That seems to me to be an irresponsible position to take.

[Harlowe]

No it's realistic. You aren't going to stop them from attempting to get nothing done.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

You're a moron.

Says the moron that completely missed the sarcasm.

So predictable. You weren't being a moron, you were just joking!

Ok, which was sarcasm? The post where you made a fool of yourself by completely missing the point, or the one where you implied that didn't happen?

I shouldn't have to point it out to you, oh great one.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

In the US as opposed to a "socialist" country you are more able to freely cross the class lines, if you have the drive and desire.

Interestingly, the US has a higher Gini index than China does.

Dd

I'm seeing China at 46.9 and U.S. at 40.8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... e_equality

Though going by the Gini Coefficient page, it shows the U.S. at 46.6 for 2008 and does not provide a number for China. Instead it has a chart that shows China trending upwards (likely surpassing the U.S.).

[Ddrak]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 2rank.html

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Gotcha.

[Ddrak]

I don't really know what that means, aside from the US has a steeper income differential than China. Being notionally socialist you'd have to think that should be the case, but we all know China is about a socialist as Russia is democratic.

Dd

[Select]

but we all know China is about a socialist as Russia is democratic.

You're a white male in a society that favors white males.

I feel like it was you who argued against this awhile back, Embar. Maybe I'm wrong, since a few people argued against it and I could be mixing people up.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I don't really know what that means, aside from the US has a steeper income differential than China. Being notionally socialist you'd have to think that should be the case, but we all know China is about a socialist as Russia is democratic.

Dd

If I'm understanding Gini correctly then it shouldn't be surprising that China's number is lower given the multitudes of people they have in "poverty" (that being the Peasant classes).

Balance that with the fact that the majority of the American Population is in the Middle class, then it should make sense that we have a steeper income differential.

I could be totally mis-understanding it, though.