Atheism

[Klast Brell]

I think Klast needs to post more pictures of his baldness and then I'll consider atheism.

The beard comes and goes with my whims. Both of these are from this year.

[Baginns Hobbiton]

Hey there,

I hate to be "that guy" that throws in the dictionary definition but here it is.

Faith
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

I am not trying to argue semantics. I just feel that if we are going to discuss faith then we need a common understanding of what we are talking about. I propose that faith, as we are talking about it here, is a mixture of definitions 1 and 2. It is confidence, trust, or belief in someone, something, or an idea of which you have no quantifiable proof.

Sometimes people say that atheists have faith. Perhaps you feel that faith is a natural state and you can't imagine it's absence.

I think that you do have faith Klast. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that due to your past experiences and perception of the world you have come to the conclusion that there could not possibly be a god. You have trust and confidence in that belief and you have no way to prove it, just as I have no way to prove you wrong. I think you also have faith in the scientific method. I do as well.

Every time science advanced to the point where a reliable test for the presence or absence of god could be performed, the test reported absence.

When has science ever had a reliable test for the presence of God? Sure, science has disproved some beliefs of religious people such as the thought that the earth is the center of the universe. However, those beliefs were never biblically based (at least I can't find it anywhere in my Bible) and were just extensions of their own pride. A modern example is the thought that we are alone in the universe.

On the contrary, I think that science has done a great deal to reveal God to us. The big bang theory states that there is a beginning of our universe (Genesis?) and that it will eventually end in one way or another weather it be in a big crunch or slowly cooling into bleak nothingness. We can explain things up to the very point of creation, but at that point both Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity break down and go to infinity. Even if we do find a uniform field theory, it does not disprove God. Just because we can find out how things work, does not mean we know why things work.

[Klast Brell]

I didn't see the "god of the gap" thing as a straw man. I was just trying to a name to what I thought was being said. Between the "god shaped vacuum" and "beauty can not be explained by science" it sounded to me that an argument was being made. Specifically that god is responsible for the things that lack a mundane explanation. If misunderstood then by all means tell me what you really meant.

A deist would not use the phrase "god of the gaps" it denies that god exists outside of those gaps. But I mean it in the affirmative. When someone argues that the scientifically unexplainable can be explained by god, they are claiming that god fills that gap in our scientific knowledge.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Klast, I gotta say, you did an excellent job of changing your lifestyle to a more healthy one. Dude, I think you just added 10 years to your life, looking at those before and after pictures. Unless you get hit by a bus jogging or cycling, but you know what I mean.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Keep the beard, you look better with it imp but i can imagine it can be a pain to keep up with... yay for manscaping ! And i agree with Embar, very very good for you !

Also i note the first definition of faith does not include anything involving God, where as there are certainly other definitions for the word that do include God i think it says something that the first does not automatically include the word God.

I think this thread has about come full circle and is disintegrating into a debate when it was a better thread when people were offering view points and not nit picking over semantics. Everyone has contributed wonderfully and everyone has remained staunch in their place about their beliefs, and no one hates anyone else... Kudos to Rants !

Where's that thread from a long time ago Kythan really got into ?

[Alluveal]

Yeah, totally off topic, but you look great at the weight you are. How is that going, by the way? I'm trying to take off some of the turkey weight and then some. Finals are no fucking fun and suck when it comes to stress eating.

[Harlowe]

I like the well manicured beard, but then again, that's how we know you here so maybe I'm bias because that's who Klast is to me. =)

As far the argument devolving into semantics, it hasn't. Sometimes going into semantics better defines the person's viewpoint and creates a better understanding of the argument.

[Klast Brell]

I think you also have faith in the scientific method. I do as well.

Fair enough. We both have faith in science. But only one of us has faith in god. My lack of faith in god is not a faith. It is the absence of faith.

When has science ever had a reliable test for the presence of God?

Never. And that is precisely my point. We are surrounded by proof that science works. We all agree that science works. If a reliable scientific test proved god exists, we would not be having this conversation.

We can explain things up to the very point of creation, but at that point both Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity break down and go to infinity.

And there we go with the god of the gaps again. You are placing god in to that breakdown to infinity. I think that someday science will close that gap, just as science closed so many gaps before. If you have faith that god exists in that gap, and science closes it, your faith will be proven wrong. Your statements imply that you do not believe in the 6 day creation myth. The old and new testament have references to trees and mountains so tall they can be seen from everywhere on the earth. This is impossible on a spherical earth. The mustard seen is not the smallest seed, and it does not grow in to the tallest of trees. And on and on. So many things have been proven wrong in the bible. Most deists can do the mental gymnastics to make an excuse for god being kicked out of that gap and go on believing just as strongly.

Even if we do find a uniform field theory, it does not disprove God. Just because we can find out how things work, does not mean we know why things work.

We can and do know why things work. If I drop an apple it falls to the ground. Why? Because gravity pulls the apple and the earth together. You can keep retreating. You can say that god made gravity. That god made the universe and all the forces that act inside it. You can point out unprovable scientific theories as proof of god. But if one unprovable scientific theory is enough to prove god why is one unprovable religious theory insufficient to prove the opposite?

It's raining on you. People say you are wet. And you say "No I'm dry. I have this little dry spot right here"

[Klast Brell]

The beard is mostly gone because it's getting grayer every year. From my jaw line all the way down it's completely gray. I'm six foot four. Most people get a clear view of gray. This is picture catches me at an angle where you can see the bottom of my chin more. http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1084/139 ... a84f_b.jpg It makes me look old and I'm not even 40.

The weight loss hit a plateau. The pictures where I'm wearing a tie are when I was 280. Here is a nice profile that shows my body then. (PS that's Klast's dad.) http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1350/139 ... 341e37.jpg The jacket picture is from this summer when I hit 240. I'm still 240. I still eat light enough that I don't regain the weight, but i have had struggles with the level required to continue loosing.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Klast looks like his dad. Weight loss will do that, you need to change the exercises up a bit, but frankly i think you've done a great job ! Also gray looks good on most men, women don't always see it as such till they're all gray. My dad's 62 and is graying at the temples, but he looks fantastic lol... distinguished ! Meanwhile my mother dyes her hair every 5 weeks or so, she refuses to let the gray shine through lol

[Baginns Hobbiton]

Hey there,

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the faith argument. We could both press our point but in the end it just devolves into semantics. Though I wouldn't mind a debate on the topic, everyone here has shown me a huge amount of respect for my beliefs and opinions and I want to make sure I return the favor.

And there we go with the god of the gaps again. You are placing god in to that breakdown to infinity. I think that someday science will close that gap, just as science closed so many gaps before. If you have faith that god exists in that gap, and science closes it, your faith will be proven wrong.

I agree that science may someday close that gap but I do not believe that it proves my faith wrong. I believe that God created the universe. If we manage to find out how he did it, it does not prove that he was not involved. Any attempts to prove or disprove God quickly leave science and head into philosophy.

Your statements imply that you do not believe in the 6 day creation myth.

I believe that a lot of Genesis is metaphor and was written to the audience. You don't bring up the mathematics of string theory when communicating with ancient man. However, I do believe that it is all true and still has applications today. There are other places in scripture where it says that, to God, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day. Even Christians argue about these things and at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. No one can know for sure until it's too late to tell anyone else.

We can and do know why things work.

Do we? We think that curves in space-time create gravity, but do we know why this is the case? Why are the forces in nature the strength that they are? Why are we self aware? Can science ever answer the biggest and most simple questions of all... Why are we here? What is the point of existence?

PS. Congratz on the weight loss.

[Harlowe]

I think the weight loss makes him younger looking, not older/more like his dad.

[Klast Brell]

Do we? We think that curves in space-time create gravity, but do we know why this is the case? Why are the forces in nature the strength that they are? Why are we self aware? Can science ever answer the biggest and most simple questions of all... Why are we here? What is the point of existence?

PS. Congratz on the weight loss.

Thanks for the grats. It's not easy or fun but i know it's good for me. to get my BMI (Body Mass Index) to the healthy range i need to lose another 40 to 60 pounds. But even loosing the first 40 pounds has had real health benefits already. I used to have frequent heartburn. Now i only get it about once every month or two. I also sleep more comfortably and don't wake up in the middle of the night as much.

Oh and the curved space. I'm not a physicist but I believe that the curved space, gravity relationship has been explained. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity I just don't feel like taking 10 more years of math classes to grasp the details of the explanation. Here is one that uses more layman's terms. http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node60.html
And that's just the first 2 results of a Google search on "curved space gravity"

[Select]

/klast, do you have those indoor/outdoor lenses?

[Klast Brell]

Nope. I bought the sunglasses clips with the glasses.

[Ddrak]

I understand your attacking of a "god of the gaps" argument. It's a poor argument in any case and I agree with your assessment. If you have religion it should co-exist with science and not be just a line beyond which science hasn't discovered yet.

A few weeks ago, my mother was going on about how eyelids form on unborn babies and that they are so straight, different hairs on top and bottom, etc. She then said she couldn't understand how it could happen any other way than if God did it directly. That made me cringe because I'd only recently done the research on how protein triggers enable all that sort of stuff to happen according to the codes in DNA. She's not worth arguing with on the issue but it's definitely a "God of the gaps" style argument and fails completely when you ask "Why does God make birth defects then?".

(We were discussing it because Layani's due in late May).

I think Baggins was asking why the rules of Physics were the way they were (why does General Relativity work the way it does, why are there only 4 fundamental forces, etc.) which is something science can never say, except to use the Anthropic Principle - which is quite sound but somewhat unsatisfying.

Dd

[Garrdor]

Neither side of the argument is going to budge until worldwide-accepted proof is provided. I mean, of course we'll still have those with their heads in the sand; I think if the clouds parted and a monty python-ish bust of the 'Lord' came out in plain sight to millions of people - or something other of that nature happened, It may bring some closure to the argument.

For now, we have good ol' science.

You can believe in Santa until the day you die. I know mommy and daddy put the presents under the tree.

You can also roll around on the ground making baby-talk. I will use it as LUL material.

Maybe I could make up some epic stories and get them in writing, and get it passed down through the generations to the point where there can be no acceptabe investigation to it's validity. Sounds like fun.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

OMG congrats Dd and Layani ! YAY BABY ! Are we going to leave the sex a secret ? Personally i suggest not finding out , as it's the only true surprises left in life.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I think Baggins was asking why the rules of Physics were the way they were (why does General Relativity work the way it does, why are there only 4 fundamental forces, etc.) which is something science can never say, except to use the Anthropic Principle - which is quite sound but somewhat unsatisfying.

That's what I've been trying to say too. We know the universe is highly structured. That is why science has been so successful. But who or what created that structure, i.e. the framework of the universe? Did the physical laws of nature just blink into being one day? So what's behind the structure, and is there anything behind that?

You can go back as far as you like but at some point there has to be some act of creation, which I've seen some philosophers call First Cause. The rational universe comes grinding to a halt without something at some point starting the giant chain of cause and effect. Determinism has that one little tiny giant gaping flaw. It's the best rational argument for free will, and the best one for a higher power to me. What was the finger that set the dominos rolling?

[Klast Brell]

First cause? Why so?
1 If there is a first cause, why must it be god above all alternate possibilities? I say the first cause was the Big Bang itself.
2 You counter asking "what caused the Big Bang?" But your question is is equally valid to this one "what caused god?" You may find that your answer and mine are the same. You say god caused himself? I say the big bang caused itself. You say There was nothing before god? I say the big bang created spacetime. There was no time before the big bang, therefore there can be no "before the big bang".