Succintly Put

[Lurker]

Embar,
You've convinced me. Extending unemployment benefits is important spending, it's urgently needed spending, but it doesn't fit the legal definition of "emergency spending". I concede the point. I'm fully in favor of making the extension deficit neutral as long as it's done in a way that doesn't reduce economic stimulus, which shouldn't be difficult considering unemployment benefits are unmatched as stimulus.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Kondratieff's philosophy on economics is irrelevant today, because the global economic dynamic is light years ahead of what he postulated. Just to name a few... currency trading, debt selling by countries, changes in export/import ratios, the speed of communication, automatic trade orders... you just can't take his formulas and apply them today. Sorry Fall, but you're misguided on this point.

Wouldn't that just make the cycle contract?

[Partha]

Why should people like Embar really care if unemployment benefits are extended? It's not like the working poor are the people who buy his goods and services. They literally have no effect on his earnings and lifestyle. So why should he possibly be forced to fund their lifestyle through either letting the Bush tax cuts expire or through cuts in tax credits and loopholes that he enjoys?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Why should people like Embar really care if unemployment benefits are extended? It's not like the working poor are the people who buy his goods and services. They literally have no effect on his earnings and lifestyle. So why should he possibly be forced to fund their lifestyle through either letting the Bush tax cuts expire or through cuts in tax credits and loopholes that he enjoys?

Really? What are my earnings Partha? What is my lifestyle? How much did I pay in taxes last year? What business am I in and who pays for my services? Don't embarrass yourself further by making ignorant statements like this, unless you can back them up. You've already surpassed Rsak as the board fool, don't make it any worse for yourself.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Embar,
You've convinced me. Extending unemployment benefits is important spending, it's urgently needed spending, but it doesn't fit the legal definition of "emergency spending". I concede the point. I'm fully in favor of making the extension deficit neutral as long as it's done in a way that doesn't reduce economic stimulus, which shouldn't be difficult considering unemployment benefits are unmatched as stimulus.

Thank you for the response, however you're saying some things that I never said. The only part of your response that directly addresses my position on this particular issue is this:

it doesn't fit the legal definition of "emergency spending". I concede the point.

The question of the importance of the UI spending and the urgency of it is still in debate.

Also, I would appreciate answers to my other questions, particularly the question of what do you think should happen when these benefits expire and the unemployment rate is still high, should the Dems pass further expected UI benefit extensons under the PayGo rules, and do you think the Dems passed this provision, scheduled to expire just after the elections, to buy votes?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Kondratieff's philosophy on economics is irrelevant today, because the global economic dynamic is light years ahead of what he postulated. Just to name a few... currency trading, debt selling by countries, changes in export/import ratios, the speed of communication, automatic trade orders... you just can't take his formulas and apply them today. Sorry Fall, but you're misguided on this point.

Wouldn't that just make the cycle contract?

What? No...how could you postulate that given the differences in his philosophical assumptions and the reality of today's macro-economic model? Simply put, his models aren't relevant anymore. They don't capture the moving forces of current modern economic forces.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Gotcha.

[Partha]

Why should people like Embar really care if unemployment benefits are extended? It's not like the working poor are the people who buy his goods and services. They literally have no effect on his earnings and lifestyle. So why should he possibly be forced to fund their lifestyle through either letting the Bush tax cuts expire or through cuts in tax credits and loopholes that he enjoys?

Really? What are my earnings Partha? What is my lifestyle? How much did I pay in taxes last year? What business am I in and who pays for my services? Don't embarrass yourself further by making ignorant statements like this, unless you can back them up. You've already surpassed Rsak as the board fool, don't make it any worse for yourself.

Awww, is we angwy? So Sowwy.

As to who and what you are?

http://brellrants.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... ny#p499845

From business standpoint, it depends on the level of disparity in cost between public and private insurance. As it stands now, just for my little company with 18 employees, we spend over $110,000 per year (18 x $500/month x 12 months) on employee health benefits. That's a huge number for such a small company. (The partner's have the same coverage as the employees, there isn't a two-tiered system).

http://brellrants.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... ny#p498292

I live, breathe and eat this shit every day, because it affects where I can find funding for my company, and at what cost. I deal with F500 companies and small mom and pops. Credit is vitally important to running a business, but credit has a cost. Most of the sophisticated companies I know are trying to secure credit lines with international banks. Ask yourself why that is the case.

http://brellrants.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... ny#p477289

And in regards to the "old boys club".. that is simply not the case. Maybe it once was, but it is irrelevant today (I'm speaking from the perspective of a businessman). I don't care what gender a person is, or what color, or what religion. If they are my employees, I care that they perform well. If they are my client, I care that they pay on time.

Oh, and on a side note, the two women in my company are the highest paid individuals. One of them, a salesperson, will make more than me as an owner.

http://brellrants.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 80#p502107

I paid over 60K in Fed income taxes last year, what'd you pay Lurker? If you're going to call someonhe out for not "paying their fair share", you better be able to back that up.

You've left more than enough clues as to what kind of business you're in and how much you make. All it takes is for someone to remember it.

[Embar Angylwrath]

If I've left enouh clues, then solve the big mystery Partha. You don't make me mad, I actually pity you. You're an angry man, angry at the world, angry that people won't insure you because you're overweight and unwilling to do anything about it, angry because there aren't enough grocery stores.

Every day you wake up, you have to go through life being you, and I find that really sad.

[Harlowe]

I don't see Partha that way at all. He's a guy passionate about his convictions. You can be the same way, just the other side of the coin. I don't see him as the angry, pathetic loser you make him out to be any more than I see you as the greedy, angry corporate cartoon character you are painted.

Unrelated, but speaking of Capitalism....I can't wait for this book to come out.
http://www.amazon.com/Enigma-Capital-Cr ... 0199758719

[Partha]

Harlowe, have you read The Shock Doctrine?

[Partha]

If I've left enouh clues, then solve the big mystery Partha. You don't make me mad, I actually pity you. You're an angry man, angry at the world, angry that people won't insure you because you're overweight and unwilling to do anything about it, angry because there aren't enough grocery stores.

Every day you wake up, you have to go through life being you, and I find that really sad.

I don't need to solve it to the level of what tie you wear to work on Friday, Embar. You're in sales, you don't deal (as I said in my post) with the kind of people who need unemployment benefits in your business, you make enough money that you have to pay a shitload of taxes and you hate hate HATE on poor people because they took your monies. You hate on public education, you hate on the poor, you show more empathy for animals than fellow humans, and if my life makes a person like you sad, then I can take pride in living it.

[Lurker]

Embar, I've told Partha he was out of line on occasion. Keep that in mind as I tell you that your last post was out of line. It was a rude personal attack that went beyond anything Partha has posted towards you on this topic.

[Partha]

Let him have his hate, Lurker. It makes him happy.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Oh boy, are you sooo off on that.

Here's the real deal, since you seem to have a bromance crush on me...

I'm 46 and I run an environmental company in California. You heard that right.. and ENVIRONMENTAL company.
I co-own this company with four other partners.
I employ truck drivers, technicians, sales people and administrative people, pretty much the blue collar jobs you say I hateon.
The wage disparity between the lowest hourly wage earning worker and an owner's wage is less than 3x.
We have a a 401(k) that matches up to 4% of salary, and those match funds are immediately vested, they don't have to wait a series of years to get it.
We also have a profit sharing portion for our employees, based on time of service and not wage. The longest employed person gets a larger share than some new VP we might hire, a way we show that from top to bottom, everyone at our company is valuded.
Insurance for the primary is fully paid for (in most cases, sometimes there's a little overlap, $20-$20/month)
We have a wellness benefit, in that the company pays for gymmemberships for the employees.
I have one employee that makes more than any of the owners (all of which are actively working in the compnay).
We have flex time and tele commute options for employees.
Ten holidays per year, paid, (and its actually closer to 13 when you count the days we send employees home early in front of the holiday, but still pay them)
Educational assistance
Car allowances
Cell phones and laptops

That's me Partha. Just another employer with his boot on the neck of his employees.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Forgot one other thing I'm very proud of...

My company has dropped over 5K this year on direct educational assistance to teachers and programs that keep kids off streets (sport programs in low income neighborhoods)

So there you go, feel free to flame away about how my compnay is another shitbag company sucking the life out of its employees.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

That's me Partha. Just another employer with his boot on the neck of his employees.

I've stood in your shop, met your employees and seen your work environment. I especially liked the fish tank in the conference room. It's a different industry but pretty much the same working environment I have at my company. Everyone seems happy, pleasant, professional and down to earth.

Most people would fucking kill for a gig in a place like that, and in my experience you never end up with a company / work environment like that on accident. It's an awesome company because you and your peeps made it that way, through what must've been a totally ridiculous amount of hard work and dedication. We share the same work ethic and because of that I will personally give the words of someone like yourself more weight than most people. And of course, my software architecture services are always available lol.

But having said all that, I see where Partha is coming from too. There's a horrible disparity in this country between the haves and have nots. Maybe it's just because I've spent time firmly in both categories, but I feel massively blessed to be where I am and massively bummed to know there's people strugging to feed their families, provide shelter and even stay warm in the winters. Not all of these people are slacker drugee alcoholics. There really is such a thing as a real victim. It's almost a fucking crime to be poor in this country, and it's shameful. Truly shameful how some people are treated. And there's more to participating in the community than just providing for those who are dependent on you. But who am I to talk - I'm just as guilty of self absorption as most. I don't do enough for my community and neither do most of us here. So I really admire Partha's passion.

Seeing both sides, it really beats the fuck out of me what the answers are. I don't think I'm smart enough. One side of me sees that almost all of the obstacles in life are self-imposed and the other side of me says that it's wrong to turn my back on my brothers and sisters. Where's the middle ground? I wish I knew.

[Harlowe]

Embar, I've told Partha he was out of line on occasion. Keep that in mind as I tell you that your last post was out of line. It was a rude personal attack that went beyond anything Partha has posted towards you on this topic.

Yep, this.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

Embar, I've told Partha he was out of line on occasion. Keep that in mind as I tell you that your last post was out of line. It was a rude personal attack that went beyond anything Partha has posted towards you on this topic.

Yep, this.

Yeah, that was pretty cold. I'm all for people who get what they have coming, but he didn't have that coming. Partha's a good guy.

[Lurker]

I disagree with Partha that Embar is a hateful person.

We should be able to disagree on policy without attributing malicious motives on the other person.