WoW or EQ2

91.3% uncensored free-for-all (see, no false advertising here)
Ddrak
Save a Koala, deport an Australian
Posts: 17517
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
Location: Straya mate!
Contact:

Post by Ddrak »

EQ2 and WoW are very similar at a core level and very much contemporaries in game design. As a comparison, here's my view:

Both games are fundamentally quest based and the best way to gain XP on both is having many quests running. WoW's quests seem marginally more effective than EQ2's but this may be because of the XP curve in EQ2.

Both games have instanced dungeons. EQ2 instances everything but city zones to reduce lag.

Both games allow you to log on and instantly do something - even if you are time constrained.

EQ2 is significantly harder to level in that WoW. It's nothing to do with questing or lack of it, it's just the XP curve is a lot steeper. For me this is a positive for EQ2 as I don't want to level past content too fast that I don't see it, but for the more casual player I can see WoW holding more appeal on this difference.

EQ2 has no PvP at all right now (though I'm guessing it will be implemented in future - arenas do exist but are simply locked atm). WoW has PvP built in as a core game design feature. Again, different things will appeal to different people.

EQ2 has higher system requirements than WoW. This means EQ2 will start to lag on any system without a true DX9 card, 1G of memory and a 3GHz CPU. WoW caters to the lower end, but it's less "future proofed" than EQ2 in that manner.

EQ2's penalty on death is steeper than WoW's. Again, good and bad.

EQ2 and WoW both are separated into two very distinct factions, though EQ2 allows cross-faction grouping/guilding while WoW maintains a very marked barrier.

SoE has more experience with MMOG maintenance than Blizzard/Vivendi. The picture perfect EQ2 launch pretty much displayed this experience compared to WoW's more rocky beginnings.

WoW has far more "fanboys" than EQ2 so you'll see plenty of noise about how wonderful WoW is from people that have never progressed past Lv20 in EQ2. Cut through the noise - EQ2 is far more than these fanboys want to admit to anyone.

Raid content in EQ2 is limited to 24 players. In WoW I believe it's 40 players. Make of that what you will. ;)

Both WoW and EQ2 offer more complexity and depth of character roles in encounters than EQ1 ever did.

EQ2 lets you /tell people in EQ1 and share chat channels. Obviously WoW doesn't. This isn't a huge deal really...

That's about it. I'm playing EQ2 pretty hardcore and enjoying it immensely over EQ1. Everything I've seen about WoW seems to indicate things are exactly the same over there. It seems very much a matter of personal taste than seeing any clear winner between the two.

Dd
Rsak
Soverign Grand Postmaster General
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:47 am
Location: Gukta

Post by Rsak »

This means EQ2 will start to lag on any system without a true DX9 card, 1G of memory and a 3GHz CPU.
From my experience it has more to do with the Video Card and the RAM. I have only occasionally experienced lag and my CPU is only 1.8GHz, but i have a 9800XT and 1 Gb of Ram.
End the hypocrisy!

Card's Law:No event has just one cause, no person has just one motive, and no action has just the intended effect.
Riggen
kNight of the Sun (oxymoron)
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Northrend, Azeroth, or Outland
Contact:

Post by Riggen »

RAM is a HUUUUUGE deal in EQ2. The difference in performance between 512 MB and 1 GB is quite pronounced, especially in city areas. With less than a gig, you'll be suffering hard in town but once you get out into the world it's playable. With a full gig, troubles vanish and the game is pretty happy everywhere, even with texture resolutions cranked up to high.

It's less important in WoW, but there are definitely advantages to having a gig even there. Occasional stutters vanish and the game acquires preternatural fluidity with a full gig, even when transitioning between areas.

In short, having a gig of RAM is nice. :)
EQ: Riggen Silverpaws * Natureguard * Forever of Veteran Crew
WoW: Simbuk the Kingslayer, Riggen, Ashnok
Ddrak
Save a Koala, deport an Australian
Posts: 17517
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
Location: Straya mate!
Contact:

Post by Ddrak »

Rsak,

Yep. Should have clarified that. It's interesting that EQ1 is very CPU dependant while EQ2 is very Vid Card dependant. Laya and I have virtually identical machines (Athlon 2800, 1G RAM) except she has an X800 Pro and I have a 9700 Pro. She literally gets 3x the frame rate I do.

Dd
Bahd Zoolander
Grand Inspector Inquisitor Commander
Posts: 2636
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:42 pm

Post by Bahd Zoolander »

Ddrak wrote:Rsak,

Yep. Should have clarified that. It's interesting that EQ1 is very CPU dependant while EQ2 is very Vid Card dependant. Laya and I have virtually identical machines (Athlon 2800, 1G RAM) except she has an X800 Pro and I have a 9700 Pro. She literally gets 3x the frame rate I do.

Dd
Dude, you're so whipped.
Bahd Zoolander - Transcendent - On Vacation
Rsak
Soverign Grand Postmaster General
Posts: 5365
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:47 am
Location: Gukta

Post by Rsak »

I occasionally will get some lag while riding the griffins, but other then that the worse case of lag i have ever gotten was server side that a bunch of us were getting.

The instancing making it i bit of a challenge to get in the same zone as others when they are big as the commonlands or antonica, but luckily if you get confused the map will tell you which instance you are in.
End the hypocrisy!

Card's Law:No event has just one cause, no person has just one motive, and no action has just the intended effect.
Ddrak
Save a Koala, deport an Australian
Posts: 17517
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
Location: Straya mate!
Contact:

Post by Ddrak »

Shaddup Bahd.

(I'm holding off for an nForce4 system)

Dd
Thoric the Mad
Oppressor of the Peons
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:02 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

eq2 blows syphalitic goats.

Post by Thoric the Mad »

Played both of them since their respective F & F alphas.

I now play only WoW.

EQ2 was like having my leg trapped in a bear trap. Or perhaps licking the anus of a dead, syphalitic goat who had chronic hemorroids.

Slow pace, animation that looks like someone made a time-lapse film of a posed barbie doll with a stick up its ass, and a horribly dull storyline are only a few of the major flaws in EQ2. Let us not discuss the dull combat or overly linear character progression.

I for one cannot imagine how any of these people live with themselves recommending eq2 to you in any way. I guess misery loves company. The only person I can see enjoying eq2 is one to whom dull micromanagement is the most exciting sort of fun. Say, someone who enjoys doing their taxes.

I will go so far as to say that anyone who recommends EQ2 is both a masochist and slightly retarded, or at least in need of mood-altering medication and a possible 72-hour mental watch in a nearby hospital.
"The problem with the genepool is that too many people like to stand in the shallow end and pee in it." -Thoric Frosthammer
Eanwen
Sekrut Master
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:13 am

Post by Eanwen »

Ddrak
Save a Koala, deport an Australian
Posts: 17517
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
Location: Straya mate!
Contact:

Post by Ddrak »

You've got me interested now Thoric. Aside from the purely subjective criticism (personally I think the animation in EQ2 is far superior to WoW's overtly cartoonish and blocky style), I'd be interested in why you feel that:

- EQ2's pace is overly slow? (Personally I feel WoW's is too fast and people will miss content as they level past it - subjective though).
- EQ2's storylines are "dull"? (More than a few have had me laughing and definitely very interested in it)
- Combat is dull? (I noticed little difference between combat in the two games)
- Character progression is linear - especially compared to WoW?

Honestly, in comparison to WoW, my feeling on all of those points was that EQ2 was very much an even contender. The only reason I can find for such venom on your part towards the game is the very thing Akhbar was talking about on the other thread - some unreasoned desire to justify your personal choice to those who made different ones, because frankly your analysis seems particularly unjustified.

Dd
Riggen
kNight of the Sun (oxymoron)
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Northrend, Azeroth, or Outland
Contact:

Post by Riggen »

I can see some of Thoric's points. I'll tick them off as you mentioned them:

Animation. It's not the poly counts or texture detail--both of which are obviously much higher in EQ2 than in WoW--but rather the way the world moves. Take the griffon/gryphon flight comparisons that I mentioned earlier. In EQ2 the griffon's wings flap straight and mechanically in a fixed pattern. The flight path is visibly on rails and frequently gives a disjointed look when changing altitude or direction. In WoW on the other hand, gryphons flap their wings much more like an actual living creature. Legs bob and muscles bunch. Flight alternates between flapping and gliding, and when turning or changing altitude banking occurs realistically. This comparison is typical between the two games. If you still feel the need to argue the point, compare dancing animations. :) You don't see MC Hammer gracing many EQ2 dance videos do you? Thoric is dead on, WoW wins by a mile here.

I'm not sure that EQ2's levelling pace is too slow--it's too early to tell--but up into the teens it seems about 2/3 as fast as WoW if you take proper advantage of questing as you hunt. As for WoW, it seems like the pacing is such that most of the content you're going to miss is the newbie content aimed at other races. If you do the quests provided and actually get out into the world instead of staying in one place and grinding (which is not the most efficient or fun way to advance) then you'll run into gobs of things to do all over. I believe it was once a selling point of EQ Classic that there was so much to do in the world that you'd never be able to get it all done with just one character, and I think the same argument could apply here to both new games. EQ2 is a bit slower, but I'm not sure I really care.

Combat in both games is a lot more interesting than in EQ classic. I don't think EQ2 combat could be called dull by a long shot, but it's more lively in WoW. Many of the mechanics are the same in both cases, however the timing is a little bit different. EQ2 has longer ability activation times on almost everything, whereas WoW tends to have shorter activation times and relies more on cooldowns and other factors like rage and energy. The result is that fights in WoW have a more immediate and responsive feel to them than fights in EQ2, yet still retain a structured pacing.

Character progression is linear in both games. But if you think about it, progression is really even more linear in EQ Classic so I'm not sure that it's a worthwhile complaint. Each game allows for diversity in its own way--EQ2 by offering a wider selection of race/class combos and WoW via its branching talent system. Both "funnel" you through quests and areas of escalating difficulty early on. The game world certainly feels bigger in WoW, probably because it's not as sliced up by zonelines as EQ2.

Anyway, there ya go. Make of it what you will.
EQ: Riggen Silverpaws * Natureguard * Forever of Veteran Crew
WoW: Simbuk the Kingslayer, Riggen, Ashnok
Talan Stoneheart
Apprentice n00b
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 6:26 am

Post by Talan Stoneheart »

I purchased both eq2 and wow, and personally. I'm really enjoying wow much more than I did eq2. EQ2 for me, was just felt like eq1's exp grind all over again. I like to be able to solo when I want, and its doable in wow.
Relbeek Einre
Der Fuhrer
Posts: 15871
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:16 am
Location: Eagan, MN

Post by Relbeek Einre »

Good seeing you Thoric.
Ddrak
Save a Koala, deport an Australian
Posts: 17517
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
Location: Straya mate!
Contact:

Post by Ddrak »

Riggen,

I'm not sure you're being entirely fair in your comments. The real difference between EQ2 and WoW animations that I've seen is that WoW are far more "cartoonish" - something that turns me off immensely and is obviously entirely subjective. EQ2's animation seems much finer grained and realistic in my playing. Interesting you mention the dancing - an area the WoW designers obviously spent a lot of effort - but completely ignore the entire swathe of social animations in EQ2 that are unavailable in WoW. Interesting you denounce the griffon ride when I can assure you that the EQ2 griffons, at least to me. The "disjointed" look you are denouncing means your system is not keeping up with the polys/textures that EQ2 throws at it - something the griffons stress a great deal as they fly through the world.

Essentially the difference in animation is EQ2 used motion-capture while WoW used cartoon design as the basis for their worlds. It's a style and preference thing in the end - especially given that the animations in WoW were part of what ultimately turned me to EQ2. ;)

The levelling pace in WoW is about 3 times that of EQ2. It took a little over two weeks for the first people to hit 60 in WoW, while 4 weeks into EQ2 the lead players are just reaching their 40s. Like I said before - make of that what you will.

I do agree that EQ Classic was far more linear than both games. Frankly I don't see a lot of difference in character development and the choices you have to make. One think I think will be interesting will be where the higher level players choose to craft Master level spells. That may add a whole new complexity yet. :)

Dd
clubbin
Prov0st and Judge
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:46 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Post by clubbin »

Anywhere I can see some of these animations, such as dancing, in WoW?

Its not going to influence me to change games over a dance sequence, but I can't imagine it being much better then EQ2's animations, and I'd like to see it. First off all dances lasts like 30 seconds and there's no doubt it was done using motion capturing. It looks like a real person is dancing from head to toe. All the character motions have been very life-like from body language, to facial expressions, to emotes like flirting, dancing, cheering, clapping etc.
Clubbin - EQ (retired)
Mathian - EQII (mostly retired)
-=Xilanthanax=-
Grand Inspector Inquisitor Commander
Posts: 2882
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:14 pm
Location: LOL
Contact:

Post by -=Xilanthanax=- »

There's a video robyn posted, go watch it.. it shows all of the dances.

http://www.brellrants.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5516
Make love? Fuck that, I'll make a slut cry. Fuck that, I'll make a slut cum nine times.

Hed PE - CBC (acoustic, live on Bubba The Love Sponge)
Hed PE - Let's Ride (live)
Skindred - Pressure (acoustic, live on Fuse)
Sevendust - Alpha (live)
Massive Attack - Teardrop (live)

Still playin eq, and waitin for Hellgate: London. 8)
Ddrak
Save a Koala, deport an Australian
Posts: 17517
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:00 pm
Location: Straya mate!
Contact:

Post by Ddrak »

I had a close look at the griffon in EQ2 and can see where Riggen is coming from.

There are undoubtably areas where WoW will have better animations and we could sit and pick individual areas where each game excels in all sorts of places. I guarantee I can find animations in EQ2 that don't exist in WoW or are better in one or the other. I still hold my position that the aesthetic value of each game is higly determined by your preference for motion captured vs exaggerated cartoon animations. I seriously challenge any game to beat the /flirt animation in EQ2, not to mention /notworthy and others of the 102 different available choices.

Probably the most interesting part of the EQ2 animations are the facial expressions coupled with NPC and PCs actually moving to look directly at you or their target (turning their head, tilting it up and down etc). Does that make/break the game? Hell no, but it definitely promotes the immersion.

Dd
Riggen
kNight of the Sun (oxymoron)
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Northrend, Azeroth, or Outland
Contact:

Post by Riggen »

Xil, unfortunately it doesn't show the hottest dance--the Night Elf female. Daaaaaamn she belongs in a strip club.

Dd, I just took a griffon ride in EQ2 to be absolutely sure I'm on about this. Wing flapping is not synced at all with world movement and doesn't seem to bear any weight at all on the rest of the griffon's model, there is no banking--there are points where the griffon stops in mid-air, still flapping, and lifts straight up or down and pivots as if on a gimbal. The whole time a single short flap up flap down reversing animation loop is used. Heading shifts with minor irregularities--a little bit faster, then a little slower. The framerate is smooth, but it gives a hurky jerky appearance. To my eye that looks poor, as if it were an afterthought to compete with WoW. It's the source of my "disjointed" comment--it's not a performance issue but rather a decoupling of movements that should be closely tied together. If I'd never seen it in WoW I'm sure I'd think it was really neat, but since I have it's an also-ran. The comparison that has repeatedly struck me is that in EQ2 a flight is like a tram ride while in WoW it's like an actual flight. The difference in this case is dramatic enough that I wouldn't call it subjective at all.

I assure you that my system is completely up to spec. Based on hardware surveys like those conducted by Valve it's in the top 2% of gaming systems out there. From your described components it's considerably superior to your system. Under other circumstances you could call that dick waving I guess, but I'm really just trying to make it clear that performance is not an issue--what I see in EQ2 is "the real deal" and is pretty much the best it can get right now.

The stylistic differences are easy enough to talk about. Preferences are preferences. Both games appear to employ mocap, but WoW is certainly cartoonier overall. I'd also call it more stylish, but I acknowledge that could be subjective.

Maybe you think my opinions are overly slanted or unfair, but I don't have an agenda. This is simply my honest opinion. This ain't politics and while I enjoy discussing it, at the bottom line I don't care enough about convincing anyone to go overboard editorializing. I'm just picking some examples that serve the point and mentioning them. My posts are freaking long enough as it is without acknowledging every little detail out there. If you have some specific examples of your own you'd like to call to attention, please cite them. I'd like to see what you see.

That said, if it makes you feel any better here's my breakdown of some other areas of animation:

Everyday running around -- This actually seems largely comparable once you account for the differences in style. It's well done in both games, though each game has their minor strengths.

Emotes -- EQ2 definitely sports a wider array of them. WoW has more racial customization in some cases, and does have all of the most "important" and useful emotes. WoW emotes also feel more alive, more emotionally charged. Yes I know this is subjective. Bite me.

Melee Combat -- Well done in both cases. To my eye WoW does pull ahead here, mainly due to some "whoa" moments. In one case I watched a duel in which a Night Elf warrior pulled out some kind of great katana. The posture he assumed and the graceful strikes he employed were one of the coolest things I've ever seen in melee in an MMO.

Spell effects -- I've got to give props where they're due, EQ2 has some damned fine spell effects. I particularly like the rainbow mez effect. Blizzard does a good job, of course, but by comparison EQ2 wins big.

Non-mocappable circumstances like griffon flights -- WoW wins by a mile. Make that two miles. Sorry Dd, this is the most glaringly obvious thing to me.
EQ: Riggen Silverpaws * Natureguard * Forever of Veteran Crew
WoW: Simbuk the Kingslayer, Riggen, Ashnok
clubbin
Prov0st and Judge
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:46 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Post by clubbin »

That was hillarious. There's no way I could watch that for 9 minutes, but I was impressed. EQ2's is equally impressive in the fluidity of the dances, but that was funny.
Clubbin - EQ (retired)
Mathian - EQII (mostly retired)
Post Reply