Perhaps, perhaps... but evil men need no reason other than their own desire to turn something noble into something decrepit.
And good men need no reason other than their own desire to believe something decrepit is something noble.
Whether the Bible is noble or not I leave as an excercise for better theologians than myself. But I do take exception to the Bible being characterized as a "text that preaches love." It preaches a lot of things, Embar, and love is but one.
Especially the gospels, which cover the life and actual teachings of Jesus Christ. (Christos, by the way, is not a pagan term -- it's Greek for "savior." It's a title, as in "Jesus, the Christ." Now, while it's true that early Greeks were pagans, the NT is a translation into Greek from Aramaic Jews -- who were hardly pagan.)
It's true the Old Testament is full of some pretty nasty and weird stuff, but the whole God is loving and kind, love-thy-neighbor bit comes from the New Testament -- the Christian part of the Bible. (Remember, the OT was written about 3000 years before the birth of Christ -- or a millenium longer than Christianity has been around now.)
Bangzoom
94 Ranger of Karana
Veteran Crew, through and through
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You might be surprised that not only does Romans NOT say homosexuals specifically deserve to die, but that the unbelievers were turned into homosexuals by GOD HIMSELF as a form of punishment (Romans 1:26). (This is also the only passage in the entire Bible that mentions lesbianism specifically.)
If you really want to dispute the fundies, you need to do your homework.
Bangzoom
94 Ranger of Karana
Veteran Crew, through and through
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26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, Godhaters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Just because I don't follow the book doesn't mean I didn't do my homework, Bang. Please don't condescend to me.
Again, whether the Bible is a good, just or noble book is not the point I'm debating. Embar summed up the Bible (and I'll even narrow it to NT for you) as that it's a book that preaches love. It clearly preaches a lot more than love. Saying it's God word that these people deserve death is not a statement of love.
If you even bothered to read the passages you quoted, you would notice that gossips, people who disobey their parents, the boastful, etc. also "deserve death."
If you read a little more in depth, (say through four more short chapters,) you'd find that Paul isn't talking about literally being put to death, but about a spiritual death that none have to suffer, thanks to Grace.
If you really did your homework, you'd find that Paul is attempting to convert the Romans to Christianity here, (thus the title of the book,) and stretched Christ's message a bit here and there rhetorically depending on whom he was addressing in his attempts to organize the early Christian church.
Your scholarship is more suited to a fundamentalist than to an atheist.
Bangzoom
94 Ranger of Karana
Veteran Crew, through and through
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Yes, Bang, I read that. They all "deserve death." Doesn't mitigate my point at all, and you know that.
You can spread all the "but but but but" on it that you like, like so much cream cheese on a stale bagel, but that is not a message of love in Romans I. Yes, Grace will save you - that's the carrot, the message of love. But if you don't believe as Paul does, your soul is forefeit - that's the stick, and it's not a message of love.
From the perspective of the Bible: death isn't the stick, its a statement of reality. Without Christ your soul is forfit, because of all the things you have done, etc.
Vaulos Grandmaster of Brell / Shadowblade of Kay Minister of Propaganda for the Ethereal Knighthood
The correct answer to your query is "Mu." (Seems Bangzoom and I both know the Jargon File.)
I think it's fine to concentrate on the message of peace within the Bible. I just don't think it's right to have to deny the rest of it exists to do so.
The way you've twisted the dialogue here is a good example of how men can ignore the truth to suit their own ends.
Hey bro... it wasn't me who hung from some wood as a sacrafice for others.. peace and love are His message. I don't think you can deny that it's written over and over again in almost every part of the New Testament.
Why you have to focus on the stuff taken out of context to try and diminsh that message is beyond me.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.
(I can see the venom coming from certain corners now, so let me head it off:)
I think someone following the Bible for what it truly communicates, and what its overall message is, will lead a good life. I believe they will see most of the people of the world as deservedly damned (as I suspect Embar, but not Bangzoom, views me), but they will love all people, damned or not.
I do believe the overall message of the Bible is that no sin is unforgivable, that all people can be forgiven, and any one can go to Heaven by seeking that forgiveness. I have no quarrel with that, and part of me believes deeply in the first two parts of that. (The existence of Heaven, well, I'd like it to exist, but....)
I just think that there are other messages in the Bible beyond that. Lesser messages, but message which are very removed from that central message.
See, Embar? Youre doing it again. Accusing me of saying things I didn't say. Why is it you can't take what I say at face value and address that? At least Bangzoom doesn't accuse me of actions or motives I didn't take. Is your faith that fragile? And if it is, is it truly faith at all?
I would make a similar accusation about your interpretation of the Bible Keebler. You acknowledge the main theme, yet you refuse to judge the entirety of the New Testament on that basis.
Vaulos Grandmaster of Brell / Shadowblade of Kay Minister of Propaganda for the Ethereal Knighthood
It's exactly the same reason people take huge chunks of the Koran out of context, Embar. They have a prejudice they need to feed and if ripping stuff out of context is the way to do it, then they will.
Vaulos -- The devil is in the details, they say. I have theorized in the past that these details could be the hand of Man in the telling of the word of God.
Great men were and are Christian - such as the man whose birthday we honor today. But as with most things in this world, I do not see the Bible as an absolute. Not black and white.
Sue me.
To tie it in to the man we celebrate today, I know Dr. King was a plagiarist as a student, and that he probably committed adultery.I still think he's one of the greatest Americans in our history.
You cannot appreciate a man, or a work -- cannot TRULY appreciate it, unless you see it for what it is, not what you idealize it to be. A good chunk of my moral code comes from insights I learned from reading the Bible, even if I do not regard the book as the inerrant word of God.
