Right wingnuts exploit Atlanta courthouse shooting.

[Relbeek Einre]

Agreed, Eidolon - but none of that has to do with gender issues, which the wing-nuts are trying to make it out to be all about.

[Kulaf]

Which begs the question.....why do we.....and more importantly you.....care about what the "right wingnuts" have to say?

[Aabe]

In PARADE magazine, (the fact standard of all reality) they were unhappy with "The million dollar baby" movie, believing it would further encourage women boxing. Their arguement was that womens bodys do not stand up to the punishement that mens can in boxing. So at least parade, usually not a Right WIng rag, seems to believe that women are not as durable as men. Not too relevant for this this case, but an interesting note.

If the bad guy here was a gorilla, skin head, "I wanna kill black people" animal. I would have not assinged black officers as a safety measure. If this rapeist really hates women, in some sick twisted way this guy may have seen it as in insult that a lone small woman was his escort. Not very smart.

We once did a study on a criminally insane individual, looking at brain maps to see if we could spot certain psyc abnormalities non invasively. He commented after the first test that clinking change or keys in one of the examiners pocket gave the guy the urge to pound him. We made sure there were no clinking sounds on his future visits.

[Relbeek Einre]

Which begs the question.....why do we.....and more importantly you.....care about what the "right wingnuts" have to say?

Because their influence is waxing.

[Kulaf]

Which begs the question.....why do we.....and more importantly you.....care about what the "right wingnuts" have to say?

Because their influence is waxing.

I think that is self delusional. I think both extremes tend to follow what the other is doing with rabid facination......while those of us in the middle couldn't give two shits.

[Relbeek Einre]

I submit to you that it was the wingnuts who brought down Dan Rather.

[Partha]

Which begs the question.....why do we.....and more importantly you.....care about what the "right wingnuts" have to say?

Because their influence is waxing.

I disagree. I believe that they are coming down from their highpoint.

After all, the religious right is starting to see that Bush has used them. No Gay Marriage amendment, the Usury Bill that just passed the Senate, Social Security bashing, lowered ethics - you're starting to hear some of them talk about Bush not doing much for them.

Then you have Rockefeller Republicans who call Bush's zealots 'brownshirts', like that guy who used to edit the WSJ.

Add to that Bush's failure (like most second termers) to grasp for objects he can reach and go for things he can't - Social Security is roughly analagous to Hillarycare here. He can't even get his party in lockstep on that one - tough to talk about 'mandates' and 'political capital' when your party is starting to crack on the faultlines.

[Relbeek Einre]

I hope you're right, Partha. All the same, their influence is still strong.

[Eidolon Faer]

Agreed, Eidolon - but none of that has to do with gender issues, which the wing-nuts are trying to make it out to be all about.

Actually, in a way it does...

You see, we're agreed that the problem is that a certain amount of physical strength and training is required to perform this kind of job effectively. These people do not carry handguns.

Therefore, to qualify to be one of these guards you need to be strong enough to control the majority of prisoners you'll be handling should it come to a physical struggle. That way you can operate in a two-person team and have a safety margin. And criminals aren't going to take chances fighting a team that can easily slap them down, so you actually risk less damage to the prisoners when you send a too-powerful team to escort them.

It's obvious from our discussion that this particular individual, who happens to be a woman, had no business being this particular prisoner's sole escort. Two people, preferably two TOUGH people, would be the minimum for this particular prisoner.

Gender becomes an issue, however, when equal opportunity and gender equity prevents an institution from recognizing real and legitimate issues. I wouldn't put Little Steve in charge of escorting this prisoner solo any more than I'd put this lady in charge of him solo. But because this woman's superiors have become hyper-sensitive to accusations of sexism and "making strength an issue where it is not" they turn a blind eye to the fact that this prisoner could break the woman in half and make her thank him for it.

This woman got the crap kicked out of her because she was sloppy with protocols and because she was foolish in assessing her own capability to control the prisoner and failed to request backup. But to the extent that political correctness contributed to the grossly-understrength force being assigned to escort this particular prisoner, political correctness is also to blame.

[vaulos]

Actually, if you are classifying ability to do the job on strength/ability, then you are automatically excluding an anti-femanist stance. There are women (trust me on this) who are quite able to meet any realistic standard for that work.

[Relbeek Einre]

Gender becomes an issue, however, when equal opportunity and gender equity prevents an institution from recognizing real and legitimate issues. I wouldn't put Little Steve in charge of escorting this prisoner solo any more than I'd put this lady in charge of him solo. But because this woman's superiors have become hyper-sensitive to accusations of sexism and "making strength an issue where it is not" they turn a blind eye to the fact that this prisoner could break the woman in half and make her thank him for it.

Hail, A Set of Claims Pulled Out Of Your Butt

[Eidolon Faer]

/agree Vaulos.

Used to have one for a supervisor. She was fairly petite but trust me you wouldnt even THINK of messing with her.

[Saevrok]

Relbeek, dude, what the fuck is wrong with you, is it the mid life crisis. All media is completely screwed up I mean christ who doesnt know that, but in all honesty having a 7 foot 250 pound who could bench 400 might just have changed things, so would have following policy. Both of them together are the reason. The other bullshit flaring up is to detract attention from the massive deficit and gross mismanagement of our foreign policy. I cant believe you're falling for simple little smokescreens.

[Narith]

I have known 5'2 110 pound women who could break a 7 foot 250 pound man in half. In order to work in the correctional system (this even applies to secrataries and office people) you are required to take a MINIMUM of 6 months of self defense courses, this is not just those "You stole my purse, kick them in the nuts" courses, we are talking full contact shorikan, tai kwan do, and all those other things i can not spell. Most guards will attest to you that they have several years worth of training in self defense and martial arts.

Trust me though, just because a woman is smaller than you does not mean she can't rip off your balls and feed them to you.

[Relbeek Einre]

Regardless... for a lummox that big, having three or four escorts, whomever they might be, would have been smarter. The woman, I'm sure, was a well trained deputy, and could have been one of them.

It's all well and good to say "There should have been two beefy hunks of deputy" but beefy hunks of deputy aren't always available. So increase numbers where you can't increase mass per number. It's not rocket science, nor is is "politically incorrect."

Claims of "political correctness" are baseless, based on fiction and assumption, and are spun out of wholecloth simply to use this tragedy as a political weapon. Again, "have you no sense of decensy, sir, at long last?" There's no depth to which the Bushies won't stoop to increase their hold on power.

[Eidolon Faer]

Narith,

Also, while I'm sure this lady was tougher than she looks, the fact remains that both she and her superiors grievously misjudged the situation vis-a-vis this prisoner.

Since both she and her superiors have likely had the kind of hand to hand training that should prevent such stupid misjudgements, one wonders how the misjudgement could happen. This prisoner is obviously built like a mack truck and is known to have extensive training of his own. And he has a history of violence.

While corrections officers are trained in physical defense, they are also government bureaucrats. Any decision this obviously fucked-up smells of a politics within the institution, and in this case that political smell would be a cover-your-ass fear.

Rap a bureaucrat on the teeth enough times with Politically Correct screeds and he will definitely do anything possible to avoid looking like he's "making strength "matter" where it really doesn't." Including sending little old ladies into a meat grinder without backup.

[SicTimMitchell]

I have known 5'2 110 pound women who could break a 7 foot 250 pound man in half.

I always love this kind of stuff. There's a reason boxers are classed by weight.

Martial arts training gives you a much-needed sense of confidence in a fight, but so does years of actual bloody-knuckle street fighting.

As I like to say, anyone can teach you to throw a punch, only experience can show you how to take one.

[Aabe]

I have attended only a few martial arts classes, not enough to make me competent in any way. But the first thing the instructor said was "Youve heard that a small person trained in the martial arts can take a big person, BUT if both are trained in the martial arts the big guy will still win, so never get cocky and avoid fights as much as is posslible."

[Embar Angylwrath]

I have known 5'2 110 pound women who could break a 7 foot 250 pound man in half.

I always love this kind of stuff. There's a reason boxers are classed by weight.

Martial arts training gives you a much-needed sense of confidence in a fight, but so does years of actual bloody-knuckle street fighting.

As I like to say, anyone can teach you to throw a punch, only experience can show you how to take one.

Agreed TIm.

And I think Narith has on over-iinflated sense of what 6 month of martial arts training really gives a person. As someone who trained for years in one of the more rougher arts, 6 months is just enough to learn the very basics (like how to hold your hand when you punch, some stances for balance, etc). In most schools, at 6 months, you have barely had your first sparring match.

Regardless, even if she did have training, it didn't do her much good, did it?

[Aabe]

If I were running the training for guards, I would focus on how to disable with a single blow to the throat, knee and groin., how to break holds and how to fall. Probably some on holds once a guy has been brought to the ground. Stuff that can get you out of a jam. I suspect they don't focus on face to face sparring.

Posivitive side is that probably every court house in the country is probably reviewing prisoner transport as we discuss this.