Fundamental Differences

[Harlowe]

Here's a little 2009 survey on wait times, I think my perspective is a little more intune with reality than "people just wait too long to choose a doctor".

http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/mha20 ... survey.pdf

Responses by specialty start on page 4.

[Lurker]

I can overlook a typo. Ignorance of what his own industry did just cause it didn't happen in his local bank is another matter.

Countrywide settled the predatory lending lawsuits for 8.4 billion, but to Kulaf and his anecdotal evidence it was dumb consumers that were the real issue. Sure, there were some dumb and greedy borrowers trying to game the system but that was not the norm. The vast majority of the problem was the greedy and corrupt financial industry that made it all possible in the first place, screwing both the dumb and greed and the perfectly innocent. Very telling which he side he whitwashes and which side he blames.

I said, "His world view hinges on everyone else being a victim of their own bad decisions." This whole discussion and his complete inability to agree to basic facts, and his knee-jerk "blame the patient" response, more than proves my point.

[Kulaf]

Kulaf you sound unhinged on some of this. Not sure why this particular issue feels so near and dear to your heart, as if you are personally being blamed for the loan crisis....but um, your argument would seem more credible if you didn't say things like "no nothing" [sic] repeatedly. Also the demands for more and more details of Ddrak's personal medical shit, was totally tacky.

If people need a refresher on the lending mess, here you go - http://www.thislife.org/radio_episode.aspx?episode=355

Can't rewrite history on this shit.

Also once Ddrak posted his details your story changed from it being people delaying choosing their doctors to it being a supply and demand issue. I am judging people I know with issues getting appointments, what anecdotal information are you using? The pull it out your ass information? At least my assumptions are based on personal experience not my skewed world-view.

Well I was typing those as I was raiding and killing shit in EQ2 so pardon the gramatical errors. Secondly I asked Dd for information if he felt comfortable giving it and since I have known him for like 10 years now I didn't think it was tacky at all. He knows me and if he felt at all uncomfortable he would have said so and I would have imediatly dropped it.

Finally my annecdotal information comes from at least three different HR people in three different companies telling me in no uncertain terms to imediatly go through the handbook for the plan and start finding a doctor willing to accept new patients because I would not want to wait until there was a problem before trying to find one. And then based on my difficulty finding a doctor willing to accept new patients. The reason my story changed was because of his story. He was trying to get in for a checkup......not a serious matter. If he has been trying to get in for a serious matter there is no way any doctor is going to tell him he has to wait 4-6 weeks. Getting in for a checkup is a matter of the doctor being overloaded and already booked out 2 months with appointments.

[Kulaf]

Here's a little 2009 survey on wait times, I think my perspective is a little more intune with reality than "people just wait too long to choose a doctor".

http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/mha20 ... survey.pdf

Responses by specialty start on page 4.

In so far as it was possible, Merritt Hawkins & Associates attempted to duplicate the
experience a person might have who sought to make a new patient appointment with a
physician for a non-emergent medical problem in one of 15 metropolitan markets.

Yes.....I agree.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

If he has been trying to get in for a serious matter there is no way any doctor is going to tell him he has to wait 4-6 weeks.

Um...happened to me. Had to go see a specialist for an injury. There was exactly one clinic in Omaha that my insurance was contracted with, so I had this one clinic and its 3 or 4 doctors to choose from if I didn't want to pay 75% or more out of pocket for going elsewhere. And, sure enough, it was about a 5 week wait for the first appointment. And I wound up paying 100% for it anyway because the insurance company insisted the injury was a "pre-existing condition" because I'd had a similar injury about two years prior.

[Kulaf]

I can overlook a typo. Ignorance of what his own industry did just cause it didn't happen in his local bank is another matter.

Countrywide settled the predatory lending lawsuits for 8.4 billion, but to Kulaf and his anecdotal evidence it was dumb consumers that were the real issue. Sure, there were some dumb and greedy borrowers trying to game the system but that was not the norm. The vast majority of the problem was the greedy and corrupt financial industry that made it all possible in the first place, screwing both the dumb and greed and the perfectly innocent. Very telling which he side he whitwashes and which side he blames.

I said, "His world view hinges on everyone else being a victim of their own bad decisions." This whole discussion and his complete inability to agree to basic facts, and his knee-jerk "blame the patient" response, more than proves my point.

This reminds me a lot of the farmer issues back about 20 years ago. A whole lot of farmers were taking out loans to buy big shiny new tractors and expanding their farms and then the agricultural market took a hit and the farmers got in trouble. So naturally everyone blamed the banks......how could they sit there and lend all of that money to the farmers? How can they forclose on those poor farmers?

See it's easy to feel sympathy for those who make a mistake and it comes back to bite them in the ass and then blame the big evil corporation. Works tha way in nearly every produc liability case going.....which is why we end up with McD's getting boned in the ass for serving hot coffee. Sorry but I don't live in that world. I live in the world of you own up to your decesions and you pay the piper when those decesions turn out bad.

[Kulaf]

If he has been trying to get in for a serious matter there is no way any doctor is going to tell him he has to wait 4-6 weeks.

Um...happened to me. Had to go see a specialist for an injury. There was exactly one clinic in Omaha that my insurance was contracted with, so I had this one clinic and its 3 or 4 doctors to choose from if I didn't want to pay 75% or more out of pocket for going elsewhere. And, sure enough, it was about a 5 week wait for the first appointment. And I wound up paying 100% for it anyway because the insurance company insisted the injury was a "pre-existing condition" because I'd had a similar injury about two years prior.

Ok we are talking GP's here, not specialists. Again i will ask for information if you feel comfortable giving it.....were you referred to the specialist by your plan physician?

[Lurker]

See it's easy to feel sympathy for those who make a mistake and it comes back to bite them in the ass and then blame the big evil corporation.
...
Sorry but I don't live in that world. I live in the world of you own up to your decesions and you pay the piper when those decesions turn out bad.

Nice. Lets ignore what the financial industry said they were doing and the fact that the largest lender settled a multi-billion dollar nationwide lawsuit for predatory lending practices. That way we can place the blame squarely where it belongs; on the dumb greedy borrowers.

I said your world view hinges on everyone else being a victim of their own bad decisions. Thanks for continuing to prove my point. You'll hold to that belief no matter how many facts you need to flush down the memory hole.

p.s. You might want to read about the McDonalds coffee case. Your distorted world view where everyone but the corporations are at fault led you in the wrong direction on that one too.

[Kulaf]

Yes I am sorry for believing that someone that puts a hot cup of coffee between their legs to try to pry off the lid that keeps the coffee from spilling out is a moron. God what was I thinking.

People like you and your victim mentality are the reason we have 8 in long product warning labels for how to use a stepladder.

[Lurker]

8 inch long warnings on step ladders. Oh, the horror.

Are you going to respond to the substance? How do you square the multi-billion dollar settlement for predatory lending with your belief that the problem was dumb borrowers? Going to ignore it and pull another anecdote out of your ass?

[Harlowe]

They settled because they are being efficient and frugal - saving the time and money of a costly court battle!They were victims and are just trying to make the best of the horrible situation they were put into... by no fault of their own of course.

[Lurker]

Someone needs to protect them from people like me and my victim mentality.

[Kulaf]

8 inch long warnings on step ladders. Oh, the horror.

Are you going to respond to the substance? How do you square the multi-billion dollar settlement for predatory lending with your belief that the problem was dumb borrowers? Going to ignore it and pull another anecdote out of your ass?

My guess would be that they settleled because it was economically feasible to do so in preparation for being purchased by Bank of America who wouldn't want to deal with the potential liability. But that is just a guess. But clearly everyone who settles out of court is guilty......right?

But let me put your researching brain to work here. What percentage of Countrywide's total business was represented by the total value of the property in the lawsuits? If you want to convince me......show me the data.

Showing me a case where 300 people were allegedly burned by McDonalds coffee out of the how many millions of people they serve on a yearly basis doesn't do much to shoot down my theory at all.

[Kulaf]

They settled because they are being efficient and frugal - saving the time and money of a costly court battle!They were victims and are just trying to make the best of the horrible situation they were put into... by no fault of their own of course.

What no response to my comment on your healthcare post?

[Lurker]

What percentage of Countrywide's total business was represented by the total value of the property in the lawsuits? If you want to convince me......show me the data.

How is that relevant to the fact that they engaged in predatory lending, were sued by 11 States, and settled for 8.4 billion?

You need to whitewash history to maintain your world view. We get it. Meanwhile, back on planet earth, the financial institutions did exactly what I described and deserve the lions share of the blame.

[Harlowe]

What no response to my comment on your healthcare post?

What was there to respond to, you didn't counter anything I said. So based on three HR people telling you to pick a GP quickly is your basis for saying "people are to blame for the long wait because they drag their feet picking a provider"? I think it's bullshit and you've said nothing that counters what I've said already. You keep shifting the direction of the discussion as well. We were never "only" talking about GP's until you chose to frame it as that. I was clearly talking about both GP's and specialists, but then you tell someone "no we're not talking about specialists.." but yes, we were.

[Kulaf]

I've never claimed there wasn't and isn't predatory lending. There are always people who are crooks. You want to ascribe that small percentage of crooks to the entire industry with nothing more than one settled lawsuit and nothing else to back it up. So if Ford settles a lawsuit on the Pinto that makes the rest of the auto industry a bunch of crooks pushing unsafe goods? Bullshit.

[Kulaf]

What no response to my comment on your healthcare post?

What was there to respond to, you didn't counter anything I said. So based on three HR people telling you to pick a GP quickly is your basis for saying "people are to blame for the long wait because they drag their feet picking a provider"? I think it's bullshit and you've said nothing that counters what I've said already. You keep shifting the direction of the discussion as well. We were never "only" talking about GP's until you chose to frame it as that. I was clearly talking about both GP's and specialists, but then you tell someone "no we're not talking about specialists.." but yes, we were.

Hehe no to your linked study that basically supports exactly what I said.....not you.

[Harlowe]

LOL! Yeah, which didn't counter anything I've been talking about and neither did what I was obviously linking for a reason. That's the point. You aren't making one.

Your claim was people dragging their feet choosing a clinic or doctor, which isn't supported by anything you've posted.

[Lurker]

I've never claimed there wasn't and isn't predatory lending. There are always people who are crooks. You want to ascribe that small percentage of crooks to the entire industry with nothing more than one settled lawsuit and nothing else to back it up. So if Ford settles a lawsuit on the Pinto that makes the rest of the auto industry a bunch of crooks pushing unsafe goods? Bullshit.

The entire auto industry wasn't involved in making the Ford Pinto. And wouldn't it actually be the morons who bought the Pinto that were to blame, and not Ford at all, according to your world view? We don't want to have a victim mentality after all.

On the other hand, all the major players were involved in pushing risky loans to consumers that were never a good fit for them, and they did it to bolster their bottom line when traditional refinances started declining. They did it because they thought the loans were risk free to the banks. Some of them went futher than others and committed outright criminal activity, most of them were just greedy and corrupt. In the face of that you blame the borrower.