Debt deal

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Ddrak
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Ddrak »

What the hell, guys? S&P didn't say a thing about either spending cuts or tax increases. Their actual statement is here, and you can read for yourselves exactly what they did and didn't say without any media or politician spin on it. I particularly call your attention to the following:
Standard & Poor's takes no position on the mix of spending and revenue measures that Congress and the Administration might conclude is appropriate for putting the U.S.'s finances on a sustainable footing.
S&P is interested in DEFICIT cuts, not specifically spending cuts or revenue increases. They are also interested in a long-term plan and implementation of that plan to maintain these deficit cuts (which is why the rating usually takes 9-18 years to change back to AAA once lost).

In terms of specific items in the budget, they mention revenues and expenditure almost equally:
It appears that for now, new revenues have dropped down on the menu of policy options. In addition, the plan envisions only minor policy changes on Medicare and little change in other entitlements, the containment of which we and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability.
In short, they agree Medicare and other entitlements are an issue but in the context of also not having the revenue to cover the anticipated debt. It cuts both ways - it's the balance of payments and not either side.


@Fallakin,

Muslims also believe in the moral teachings of Jesus. I doubt that makes them Christian Deists. Buddhists also fall largely in line with Jesus' moral teachings and would probably object to being called Christian Athiests.

Dd
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Lurker »

Ddrak, I quoted that same line here. I think it's clear that the broken political system, where one party was willing and eager to force default, was the real cause for the downgrade.

=====

Embar,
Your post doesn't make sense and doesn't fit any version of reality I'm familiar with. You seem to be the only person on the planet who's painting the Democrats as the winners here. You also seem to be deeply confused about what the debt limit increase accomplished. "Huge increase in spending"? Huh?

As to the S&P report...
Yes, part of their concern was that cuts didn't go far enough, part was that there were no revenue solutions, and part was that the political system was so broken that the threat of default had become a political bargaining chip.

The S&P didn't need to point fingers at a particular party; this was a situation pushed entirely by Republicans. The Democrats wanted a clean debt limit increase. Barring that, the Democrats wanted a balanced approach that included spending cuts and revenue increases. When the Republicans took us to the brink of default, downplaying the dangers the whole time, the Democrats had no choice but to vote for a bill they didn't like because the alternative would have been catastrophic. You responded by calling them hypocrites.

Bottom line... the Republicans used the faith and credit of the United States as a bargaining chip, refused to consider any revenue based solutions, took us to the brink of default, and that's what the S&P reacted to. They reacted to the new reality where a major political party, the Republican party, seemed willing and eager to cause a default if their demands weren't met.

And furthermore, the shifted focus from stimulus to deficit reduction, coupled with the years long sabotaging of the recovery for political advantage, could very well result in a double-dip recession. Which you'll promptly blame on Obama.
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Fallakin Kuvari
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Fallakin Kuvari »

Ddrak wrote:@Fallakin,

Muslims also believe in the moral teachings of Jesus. I doubt that makes them Christian Deists. Buddhists also fall largely in line with Jesus' moral teachings and would probably object to being called Christian Athiests.

Dd
Muslims consider Jesus to have been of Muslim faith, though. So that would obviously not make them Christian deists. Franklin clearly states "I think the system of morals, and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see", which obviously indicates he doesn't believe that Jesus was a Muslim and was in fact a Christian.

Buddhists believe in a multitude of things, some of which I know nothing about. I doubt anyone, regardless if they followed the moral teachings of Jesus or not, would dare call them 'Christian Atheists'.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Kulaf »

David Beers appeared on a few shows and stated that Entitlement reform is the key. because as we all know it is the largest component of the budget and faces the most upward pressure. That and they would like to see more unity from both sides in their approach to dealing with the issue.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Ddrak »

Kulaf wrote:David Beers appeared on a few shows and stated that Entitlement reform is the key. because as we all know it is the largest component of the budget and faces the most upward pressure. That and they would like to see more unity from both sides in their approach to dealing with the issue.
The quotes I've seen from him indicate he's just as concerned about revenues. Yes - he definitely is more concerned about the mandatory spending than discretionary spending on the cost side, but that doesn't mean he's saying tax revenues shouldn't be increased at the same time.

Personally, I'm amazed at the "head in the sand" approach that seems to be coming out of Washington. We see a whole bunch of attacks on S&P based on complete bullshit, we see speeches from Obama saying that he thinks the US is still "AAA" and we see further disconnects between the sides of politics with mud-slinging and failure to recognize that it's the very divisions in the nation that are the true problem here.

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Harlowe
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Harlowe »

I doubt our rating would have been downgraded at this moment if we hadn't turned a standard process into a political circus.

Speaking to the religious discussion, yes Fallakin it's the "how can you have too much religion in government" comment that is crazy. People that use their belief as the crutch to support their own political agenda, don't have to be rational. They can claim God tells them what to do (like Michelle Bachmann). It's out of their hands, they are mearly a tool of God. Whatever nutty bullshit she wants to promote, she'll just say....God told me to. If you want that in office....you're dangerous too.

We aren't a Christian nation, we're a nation founded on religious freedom. So it doesn't even matter what religion a founding father was, it's all about having the freedom to practice your own beliefs. Being a Christian is not a requirement for being a citizen. You are a Christian and wish to feel superior, that is clear. In the same way your idol crows about it in the least humble, un-Christ-like way, but the fact is our country is made up of a lot of different beliefs and becoming more diverse not less. Maybe that frightens you or makes you uncomfortable, so you want religion forced upon people, or at least to have your religion oppressing others.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

As a side note to Harlowe...

For someone who claims to be a Christian, you don't seem to grasp the very underpinnings of what a Christian is required to beleive. Your comment that Jesus was a Christian is a good example. Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian. Chistianity happened after his death. In fact, Christianity REQUIRED his death and resurrection. So Jesus could never be a Christian because Christianity didn't existr while he was alive.

If you claim to be a Christian, I suggest you spend some time understanding what makes a Christian and Christian.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Fallakin Kuvari »

@HarLOL

Sure, Sure. Put words in my mouth, like you continually do. Nothing has changed with you, except the way you lean politically.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the country is Christian. Yes, it is also very diverse. All of our founders were some sect of Christian, whether it be Quakers, Puritans, Christian Deists or otherwise. The country was founded on many Christian principles as well as Jewish and other historical teachings, because they (the founders) took the best ideas from everywhere and found a way to make them work together (Seriously, read the 5000 year leap).

@Embar

I understand completely that Jesus was a Jew. He was the "king of the Jews". He was, essentially, the first "Christian", though, and his followers extended out his teachings which lead to the founding of the Christian Faith (I mean for fuck sakes, the ideology gets its name directly from him).
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Harlowe »

Well Embar, that was pulled out of your ass.

First, where did I say Jesus was a Christian? Saying something is un-Christ-like is tantamount to WWJD, not calling him a Christian, that's a derpy thing to say.

Secondly, I don't crow about being a Christian. My upbrining is the primary basis I would talk about it. I was raised Catholic, but also Lutheran because they wanted me in religious studies during the school year (going to church twice a week isn't enough) and the Lutheran church by our grade school offered it. So I'm pretty confident I know the religion, even though I'm an agnostic at this point in my life.

Last, you really aren't in a position to lord over people about Christianity. It's that kind of behavior that makes people look phony-religious, because they just use it as a tool to feel superior over others, that and they are scared to death of their impending mortality. Just saying...

Fallakin, if I put words in your mouth, then correct me. What am I getting so wrong?
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Re: Debt deal

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I think he meant, "As a side note to Fallakin..."
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Harlowe.. it was addressed to Fallakin, not you.

@ Fall - No, you have that wrong too. "Christ" is a title, not a name. Translated from Greek, it means "the annointed one". Jesus was not the first Christian. If I had to pick someone, I'd say Peter was, when Jesus made him leader of the church. The early Christians didn't even call themselves Christians. They were a small sect of Jews, apocalypic in nature and beleif, expecing Jesus to return imminently. Hell, the early Jewish sects couldn't even agree on the divinity of Christ. Finally at the council of Nicea they "decided" that Jesus was divine.. a god. The concept of the trinity came even later... which is one of the bedrock beleifs of all Christians.

They continued to grow until they really took off in the 300s, mostly because they were made the "official" religion by Constantine and he lagalized the religion (see: Edict of Milan). They became more heirarchacal and more politically influential. They quashed other sects that differred in their beleif, and because some of internal disagreements about who was going to be Pope, we had the Greek Orthodix and Roman Catholic split.

Anyway... my point is Jesus the Christ was not the first Christain, he couldn't be because he had to cease to exist to support what you know as Christianity today. He didn't put up a sign that said "Church of Me" and start preaching a gospel that hadn't been written yet. Men took his teachings and life, filtered them, and then proceeded to fuck over other peoples in his name.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Harlowe »

Well then ...forget all that! :oops:

Sorry Embar I jumped your shit!
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Lurker »

I was confused at first too. I couldn't figure out what it had to do with what you had posted!
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Harlowe »

I know! I was like....what what what....of course I know Jesus wasn't a Christian. What is he going on about!

Now I know.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Sorry 'bout the confusion guys.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Fallakin Kuvari »

Harlowe wrote:You are a Christian and wish to feel superior, that is clear. In the same way your idol crows about it in the least humble, un-Christ-like way, but the fact is our country is made up of a lot of different beliefs and becoming more diverse not less. Maybe that frightens you or makes you uncomfortable, so you want religion forced upon people, or at least to have your religion oppressing others.
I have never and will never "wish to feel superior" when it comes to my faith. This is where you're putting words in my mouth.

I'm merely trying to drive home a point that our founders were Christians (or at least in some sect of Christianity) because people are either 1) too lazy to look into the facts (and words the founders themselves said) or 2) believe everything they've read in history books written by Howard Zinn.

@Embar

Point taken, I was undoubtedly wrong. Personally I don't know what I was thinking when I said that, as you said 'Christ' was a title and not a name.
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Re: Debt deal

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Howard Zinn's book was excellent. It's a part of the story, a part you need. No one book tells a history, it helps to have a well-rounded complete picture. You're just being willfully ignorant to not include a wide array of material for your historical studies. It's like watching only Fox. There are some true things that are kind of ugly and it's OKAY to not gloss over it or on the flips side, to focus too critically on it. I'm talking about having a balance here and not just picking and choosing what is an acceptable history because it's ....somehow uncomfortable or unpatriotic or just OMG LIBERAL to know the good and bad.

What religion any of the founders were, doesn't matter any more than their sexual orientation or how many slaves they had sex with when it comes to the founding of our country and it's governing laws.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Fallakin Kuvari »

You're right about one thing, it's part story.

I agree that no one book tells a history of a subject, it takes many books with collaborating facts and original sources to tell a true historical recollection of any event.

You're completely wrong with your last statement. If our founders never had their faith they (or their families) very likely never would have taken the dangerous boat ride across the Atlantic to escape religious persecution. That's exactly why in America today you can be a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew, a Wiccan, an Agnostic or an Atheist. Had they never been here because of their collective faiths America today would be a much different place, with much different laws and more than likely much different technologies. Because of that; how they came together, how they prayed together (though many of them were from conflicting faiths) and how they settled upon an agreement with the Constitution we have today; it matters very much what their religion was.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Kulaf »

IMHO, John the Baptist was the first Christian.....but continue.
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Re: Debt deal

Post by Harlowe »

This isn't about whether they had faith I'm saying what that faith is, does not matter. It was an influence, not the basis of government.
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