SoH
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- Relbeek's Bizarro Rsak Bitch
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- Relbeek's Bizarro Rsak Bitch
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- Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:33 am
- Location: Calgary, Canada
- Contact:
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- Reading is fundamental!!!1!!
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- Location: Rockford, IL
Re:
Oh boy. /sigh.The math clearly does not support leland lol. If leland was SOOO wronged, he'd have ex guildmates sticking up for him, but alas, he does not. he knew exactly what a post like this would bring and he knew how to draw SOH into it..and now he's all of a sudden hands off when he's challenged by his own guildmates on what he did. If you want to buy into that shit, fine..but I do not and neither do the other ppl who have had time to watch him daily in our guild.
There are a couple of good reasons people wouldn't want to post publicly in defense of someone their own guildleader despises. I could articulate them for you, but I'm sure you have a good idea what those would be. Now as to whether or not those are the reasons - well, I'm not here to poll random SoH members. I'd hate to think you were doing that inside your guild, and I doubt you do.
Secondly, WHAT are your guildmates challenging him for? Being awarded the gloves by Subtle? He's guildleader, he can make those decisions, and he probably makes them without Leland pulling his strings. Or maybe it's the defaulted mace? Of course, that story keeps changing - doubtless it'll change again before this thread is over.
Fact: People who have left your guild have come back to troll your guild in ways unlike any other guild has been trolled.You didn't merely point this out. You made a theory based on it about our guild and how it is when you in fact do not know a single thing about our guild.
Fact: A larger number of people who have left your guild than any other three guilds combined have come back to troll your guild. No other three guilds you could name put together have more trolls from ex-members than SoH. You may not like to hear it, you may have a different reason for it, but it's a fact. And I could give a damn about competition levels and loot levels - every other guild at your level and above seems able to keep their dirty laundry off this rant board. What few people do are FAR outnumbered by ex-SoH trolls. Why is that? Do you know? Do you care? Do you want to see it as a continuing problem for your guild, or do you see it as something that your guild could improve upon?
If I were running the show for SoH, I'd damn sure want to know how someone as unbalanced as the first one made it through my recruiting process. That's my unsolicited advice for the day. As far as the second one goes, proves my point - Enshadowed had one in the past year. SR had one - Amalia. How many does SoH have?I'd ask yourself why ppl even a year out..unprovoked..are still that mentally unbalanced that they have to create fake names to keep their attack up..why even one person went so far as to fake their death lol to another guild because they were such a drama queen

Well, it doesn't really work like that with my guild - but if he wants to come to DA, he can send any officer a tell. VT raiders find our guild boring tho.Now how about putting your money where your mouth is and get him guilded with you so he is no longer homeless. I'm really serious about this and I believe you should also make sure to tag your name to him fully backing him.

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- Intendant of teh Building
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Chants no one said the blood hammer didn't have better secondary stats. What does that have to do with our loot rules not being followed? Your comment about well he woudn't use the xtc hammer except for smithing.. umm, over the shaman epic? Yer smokin crack if you think the hammer isn't superior to the shaman epic spear. Wisdom doesn't mean shit, you have any idea what kinda wis we got out the ass on priests at our level of the game?
Relying on a -100 hate proc to control agro from slow? LMAO. That's some funny shit, ask a warrior about hate procs...
I realize that you posted to continue the feud you have with saph n subtle, but you had some gaping holes IMO that I chucked my 2cp at
Relying on a -100 hate proc to control agro from slow? LMAO. That's some funny shit, ask a warrior about hate procs...
I realize that you posted to continue the feud you have with saph n subtle, but you had some gaping holes IMO that I chucked my 2cp at

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- Intendant of teh Building
- Posts: 217
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Partha no offense but your twisting things. Leland joins channel and says he's a 188+ smith, Subtle said oops leland is 188+ smith gratz leland. Leland then loots. Leland already had the smith mod hammer which maxed his smithing skill. He looted gloves under false pretenses. Folks get royally pissed, leland gets kicked out cuz this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Leland gets upset and goes to rants. There's yer synopsis.
BTW to say that no one will post in his defense that is guilded is bullshit. Saphdia n Subtle couldn't stand Relbeek or Adune and I joined SoH with them knowing I was friends and had a lot of past history especially with Adune and Darkguard. (BTW /salute all the old Darkguard crew, those raids were a ton of fun) I've never let who they don't like stop me from my own opinions. Leewei and Eidolon another two friends that they fight with all the time on the boards here. But it doesn't stop me from calling them friend, publicly here too. Can assume that SoH is a dictatorship if you want.. but it's a benevolent one, i think ....
/mindless minion mode ON.
BTW to say that no one will post in his defense that is guilded is bullshit. Saphdia n Subtle couldn't stand Relbeek or Adune and I joined SoH with them knowing I was friends and had a lot of past history especially with Adune and Darkguard. (BTW /salute all the old Darkguard crew, those raids were a ton of fun) I've never let who they don't like stop me from my own opinions. Leewei and Eidolon another two friends that they fight with all the time on the boards here. But it doesn't stop me from calling them friend, publicly here too. Can assume that SoH is a dictatorship if you want.. but it's a benevolent one, i think ....
/mindless minion mode ON.
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- Intendant of teh Building
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- Intendant of teh Building
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- Reading is fundamental!!!1!!
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Re:
why did yu send a tell to subtle saying that you would roll against others? You looted them by DEFAULT based on your smithing skill. It went from 180 to 150 to open BUT then it came across our screen subtle saying oh wait leland can use.
Go reread, not going to repeat the whole thing for your pea brain. He got them by default tricking 7 of his guildmates to not roll on them.
Awea and Daemonwind wanted to know about the glove incident and probably other folks also. Here is exactly what happened since I was there. Blob1 is killed, loot is done while other mobs are being cleared. Since the gloves have a bs mod, we generally prefer them to go to a blacksmither. The rules are 188 skill first, then 150, then open. The reasons are obvious to anyone who has ever raised this skill. The loot channel is called for 188 skill then 3:13 later 150 skill, another 00:56 later an open list call. From first call to loot the time taken was 5:58 as we wanted to move fast during which folks are doing cc, moving, talking. My eyes grow wide as the open call comes through as I have been wanting a chance at these for a long time as they are a significant upgrade for me. As I am scrolling frantically to find the channel name I hear Subtle say "wait, wait Leland has over 188 skill so he wins." Immediately a group member says bullshit he has the 15% mod hammer also, and I was saying the same thing in the cleric channel. This message hits the main raid channel and 16 seconds later he loots the gloves.
As was stated earlier, Leland was told to the loot the gloves due to his blacksmithing skill. Subtle wasn't aware he had the xtc hammer when he told him that. Mistake of sutbles? Guess some might say that, but lelandpain took that shit without sayin a word over the other 7 folks that wanted in on the gloves for tradeskilling blacksmithing.
Like I said.......Partha no offense but your twisting things. Leland joins channel and says he's a 188+ smith, Subtle said oops leland is 188+ smith gratz leland. Leland then loots. Leland already had the smith mod hammer which maxed his smithing skill. He looted gloves under false pretenses. Folks get royally pissed, leland gets kicked out cuz this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Leland gets upset and goes to rants. There's yer synopsis
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- 3Lekt of Fift33n
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- Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:09 am
Again you make many assumptions you have no idea about. Instead of just admitting that you do not know the shit that went on and really can't make any conclusions based on anything really solid or factual..you just keep going. All your questions have been answered and nothing is good enough and you only use math when it suits ya. I do not work like that.
When you have some actual facts on SOH that can actually have logical conclusions, then I will acknowledge what you have to say...really talking to you any further on this subject is boring as you refuse to read as your questions have been answered NUMEROUS times and you have simply proven you can't be objective enough between your friendship with leland and the truth of what really happened with him. You still are going off on points that were already cleared up and answered. You offer nothing in defense of him but what ou call as facts (where you are no where experiencing the part of the game we are to even begin to see the issues that are at the higher end game) in your eyes and conclusions that are baseless on nothing about our guild as you have done zero with us.
Saphdia
When you have some actual facts on SOH that can actually have logical conclusions, then I will acknowledge what you have to say...really talking to you any further on this subject is boring as you refuse to read as your questions have been answered NUMEROUS times and you have simply proven you can't be objective enough between your friendship with leland and the truth of what really happened with him. You still are going off on points that were already cleared up and answered. You offer nothing in defense of him but what ou call as facts (where you are no where experiencing the part of the game we are to even begin to see the issues that are at the higher end game) in your eyes and conclusions that are baseless on nothing about our guild as you have done zero with us.
Saphdia
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- Prov0st and Judge
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- Prince of Mercy (ya, right)
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Bordering on the crude, Araden said to me:
Araden said to me:
But if anyone reading this thread thought that Leland used his epic over the hammer, it's probably not due to crack smoking, Araden, but because your guild leader said it was true:
Sapdia said:
Who do you think the liar is, Araden?
With crossing over into the crude, Araden said (with scatological eloquence):
Also, a -100 hate reduction proc does matter. I had a weapon with a hate reduction proc a long, long time ago. While it never instantly terminated aggro, it sure did help the tanks peel mobs off me. Over time, it actually hindered my progress. I simply was not getting hit enough to raise my defensive stats.
And that's the way a hate reducer is supposed to work. It's not intended to save the weilder every time. That would be overpowering. But over time, one will be getting hit less. And a proc which helps a tank peel aggro off of a shaman is 100% better than no proc at all.
Araden intelligently asks:
Crude allusions aside, I do beleive you are correct, Araden. There are some huge "gaping holes", such as what did Leland in fact use as his primary: epic or smithing hammer. You have a clear, unmistakable opinion on this subject:but you had some gaping holes IMO that I chucked my 2cp at
Araden said to me:
I think that places you squarely within in the "hammer over epic" category.Your comment about well he woudn't use the xtc hammer except for smithing.. umm, over the shaman epic? Yer smokin crack if you think the hammer isn't superior to the shaman epic spear.
But if anyone reading this thread thought that Leland used his epic over the hammer, it's probably not due to crack smoking, Araden, but because your guild leader said it was true:
Sapdia said:
To which Leland replied:Care to tell this board why you have this and only used it admittedly during BSing? not as your primary:
Quote:
Hammer of the Ironfrost (BS Mod)
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 1H Blunt Atk Delay: 20
DMG: 13 AC: 18
Skill Mod: Blacksmithing +15 %
STR: +15 STA: +15 WIS: +5 INT: +5
HP: +100 MANA: +100
WT: 0.1 Size: TINY
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, type 4: empty
Yet you used this instead as your mainly equipped item:
Quote:
Spear of Fate (Epic)
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY
Charges: Unlimited
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 30
DMG: 20 Dmg Bonus: 13
STR: +10 DEX: +10 STA: +10 WIS: +20 HP: +30 MANA: +70
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Effect: Curse of the Spirits (Must Equip, Casting Time: 9.0)
WT: 1.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: SHM
Race: BAR TRL OGR IKS VAH FRG
Either he used the Hammer only for smithing, as Saphdia said. Or he used the Hammer as his main, as Leland claims. They can't both be true. Either Saphdia is lying, or Leland.I didn't use my epic with the exception of when I needed resists. I used the Hammer of Ironfrost as primary for the most part.
Who do you think the liar is, Araden?
With crossing over into the crude, Araden said (with scatological eloquence):
Although it is true that one's stats improve as one progresses through the game, every little bit helps. Even at your level of the game, 25 Wisdom is a lot for one item to carry. Items with large amounts of primary stats free up other slots for upgrades. That's how one climbs the equipment tree, no matter what level the game one is in.Wisdom doesn't mean shit, you have any idea what kinda wis we got out the ass on priests at our level of the game?
Relying on a -100 hate proc to control agro from slow? LMAO. That's some funny shit, ask a warrior about hate procs...
Also, a -100 hate reduction proc does matter. I had a weapon with a hate reduction proc a long, long time ago. While it never instantly terminated aggro, it sure did help the tanks peel mobs off me. Over time, it actually hindered my progress. I simply was not getting hit enough to raise my defensive stats.
And that's the way a hate reducer is supposed to work. It's not intended to save the weilder every time. That would be overpowering. But over time, one will be getting hit less. And a proc which helps a tank peel aggro off of a shaman is 100% better than no proc at all.
Araden intelligently asks:
The rule was meant to enhance the fair distribution of comparable loot through the guild. Since I do not see the two items as comparable (I think the mace is much better), it's application in this case blocked, not enhanced, the fair distribution of loot. When the purpose of the rule ceases, the rule itself ceases. That's what it has to do with your rule.Chants no one said the blood hammer didn't have better secondary stats. What does that have to do with our loot rules not being followed?
Old Bard of Brell
Proud Member of Poison Arrow
Proud Member of Poison Arrow
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- Reading is fundamental!!!1!!
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Re:
Except for one thing, m'dear:Again you make many assumptions you have no idea about. Instead of just admitting that you do not know the shit that went on and really can't make any conclusions based on anything really solid or factual..you just keep going. All your questions have been answered and nothing is good enough and you only use math when it suits ya. I do not work like that.
None of those quoted sections are my words.
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- Fellow n00b
- Posts: 18
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Guys, guys, please.
There's no reason this needs to be here. Leland should have never brought it, and while you're entilted to your opinions, it doesnt really change the facts at all. The guildleaders felt that he broke the rules and the spirit in which they were intended to be used, and since there were already problems there, he was let go. Leland himself said he knew his actions would cause his removal in one of his first posts. The leadership of our guild doesnt have to justify itself or it's reasoning to anyone here.
And while we're on the subject, what happened to "If I cant be with my family, I have no desire to play anymore" Leland? Bad form bringing it here.
There's no reason this needs to be here. Leland should have never brought it, and while you're entilted to your opinions, it doesnt really change the facts at all. The guildleaders felt that he broke the rules and the spirit in which they were intended to be used, and since there were already problems there, he was let go. Leland himself said he knew his actions would cause his removal in one of his first posts. The leadership of our guild doesnt have to justify itself or it's reasoning to anyone here.
And while we're on the subject, what happened to "If I cant be with my family, I have no desire to play anymore" Leland? Bad form bringing it here.
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- Reading is fundamental!!!1!!
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Re:
Wouldn't have an argument with that at all, Nasreen, were it not that the 'last straw' that happened was done with the blessing of the guildleader.
Subtle tells him to loot something.
He loots it.
He is booted for looting it because 'the guildleaders felt he broke the rules and the spirit in which they were intended to be used'.
You see a logical contradiction?
Subtle tells him to loot something.
He loots it.
He is booted for looting it because 'the guildleaders felt he broke the rules and the spirit in which they were intended to be used'.
You see a logical contradiction?
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- Yope, eh?
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I don't know what kind of equipment SoH is wearing, but I can guesstimate fairly well if they were just breaking in to VT, since I've been at that point about a year ago.
Epics or similar stat weapons are probably the weapon of choice for a number of members.
Leland already had a 100/100 weapon.
Other guildies are working with items with ~30-70hps, and similar mana totals.
The value of upgrading someone's epic quality primary to a 100/100 far far far far outweighs the possible desire for someone to upgrade their 100/100 to a different 100/100.
There's personal advancement and there's guild advancement.
When you want to personally advance, you try to roll on everything you could possibly use, regardless how negligable the upgrade is.
When you want your guild to advance, you look at how much of an upgrade you can receive from an item when it's a marginal upgrade, and compare it to how much of a major upgrade it can be to someone else, and you back out of loot determination methods when it's a no brainer that the item is much better in the hands of another person.
-Relying on procs to lower your aggro is just a bad idea all round. If you are needing to drop your aggro, meleeing the mob so you do more damage and help maintain your aggro doesn't really make much sense. If you are needing to drop your aggro, you are probably already hurting a lot, so meleeing instead of healing yourself is a dumb idea. If you are needing to drop your aggro, meleeing the mob so it has the chance to riposte and do even more damage to you doesn't make much sense.
-Also, shaman melee is pretty bad. We are capped at 200 weapon skill. Wielding a 20/22 1h blunt with 36% haste item and 60% haste buff, I manage to get roughly 20-25 dps. A shaman can do better dps by using a level 49 dot and just standing there doing nothing else. The weapon ratio is not even a consideration for rolling on a hammer like this. It's much better to just sit on your horse, turn off auto attack, and do anything else but melee for better damage (assuming you are outside).
-As well, the wisdom difference on these two weapons doesn't mean anything. When you are killing things like Emperor, and doing VT, every priest is at the 280 wisdom cap, and well beyond it. There are 20 inventory slots that can hold gear which contribute stats, plus the ammo slot, plus the charm slot. Someone raiding Emp regularly and doing VT will have an average of roughly 10 wisdom per inventory slot. That's 200 wisdom, on top of your starting wisdom. By the time I was raiding Emp and VT, I didn't even factor in whether an item had wis on it or not when I was rolling on something. It was pretty much the flowing thought, focus effect, right clicky effect, hp, and mana that determined whether I wanted to roll on a piece or not.
Epics or similar stat weapons are probably the weapon of choice for a number of members.
Leland already had a 100/100 weapon.
Other guildies are working with items with ~30-70hps, and similar mana totals.
The value of upgrading someone's epic quality primary to a 100/100 far far far far outweighs the possible desire for someone to upgrade their 100/100 to a different 100/100.
There's personal advancement and there's guild advancement.
When you want to personally advance, you try to roll on everything you could possibly use, regardless how negligable the upgrade is.
When you want your guild to advance, you look at how much of an upgrade you can receive from an item when it's a marginal upgrade, and compare it to how much of a major upgrade it can be to someone else, and you back out of loot determination methods when it's a no brainer that the item is much better in the hands of another person.
-Relying on procs to lower your aggro is just a bad idea all round. If you are needing to drop your aggro, meleeing the mob so you do more damage and help maintain your aggro doesn't really make much sense. If you are needing to drop your aggro, you are probably already hurting a lot, so meleeing instead of healing yourself is a dumb idea. If you are needing to drop your aggro, meleeing the mob so it has the chance to riposte and do even more damage to you doesn't make much sense.
-Also, shaman melee is pretty bad. We are capped at 200 weapon skill. Wielding a 20/22 1h blunt with 36% haste item and 60% haste buff, I manage to get roughly 20-25 dps. A shaman can do better dps by using a level 49 dot and just standing there doing nothing else. The weapon ratio is not even a consideration for rolling on a hammer like this. It's much better to just sit on your horse, turn off auto attack, and do anything else but melee for better damage (assuming you are outside).
-As well, the wisdom difference on these two weapons doesn't mean anything. When you are killing things like Emperor, and doing VT, every priest is at the 280 wisdom cap, and well beyond it. There are 20 inventory slots that can hold gear which contribute stats, plus the ammo slot, plus the charm slot. Someone raiding Emp regularly and doing VT will have an average of roughly 10 wisdom per inventory slot. That's 200 wisdom, on top of your starting wisdom. By the time I was raiding Emp and VT, I didn't even factor in whether an item had wis on it or not when I was rolling on something. It was pretty much the flowing thought, focus effect, right clicky effect, hp, and mana that determined whether I wanted to roll on a piece or not.
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- /spank Beeker
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So again I only picked up from the point where Leland posted about getting kicked out over the hammer. I thought it sounded lame and still do so here is my take on the last 2.5 pages.
Since Saph said it was a number of things leading up to it and that was the final straw let's revisit the gloves.
Chants pointed out that the Mace was superior to the Hammer because of the stats and that he shouldn't have been considered a lootwhore for wanting to roll on it. (page 6, near the bottom) Now I would understand that if say he bagged his hammer and was using his epic as a primary at the time but from Dost's log...
In regards to the gloves incident...
I still call bullshit on not knowing anyone else was in the channel. I don't care how busy I am buffing, if I am rolling on something that is one hell of a upgrade for me I'm going to check at least once and see who I am rolling against. It's just human nature to be curious about your competition for an upgrade.
Now even if he really, truly, honest to god never checked the channel. Wouldn't you think something was odd if you had to tell someone not once, but twice to roll the gloves? A: Why do they have to ask you twice if you want the item if you are the only one in the channel unless Rot is harrassing the raidleader wanting them more. B: Why tell him to roll the gloves if you are the only one in the channel...who are you rolling against? Rot? C: If you were in charge of the tradeskills, how could you possibly think that no one would want those gloves as an upgrade? Had you guys killed the mob enough times that everyone already had the gloves besides yourself?
Next time try the excuse that you didn't know that the gloves and the hammer wouldn't add 30% to your smithing
Tiatiah
P.S. In regards to Leland calling Saphdia a powertripping, control bitch...tell me one raid leader that isn't a control freak? Sorry...make that a successful raid leader. I don't know a single raid leader that is sunshine and rainbows during a raid. If someone doesn't take control and lead the raid, you ain't getting anywhere. I lead a number of hate/fear raids when I was working on my epic. I went from bouncy and perky and fluffy bunnies in guild chat to excel spreadsheets and hotkeyed raid instructions that barked orders to the raid. I remember being called a bossy bitch several times but atleast I knew I was doing my job as a raid leader. The times that my raids wiped and had nasty CR's were the the times that I lost control of the raid and people weren't listening. So if I were Saph, I would take being called a powertripping, control bitch as a HUGE compliment
Since Saph said it was a number of things leading up to it and that was the final straw let's revisit the gloves.
Chants pointed out that the Mace was superior to the Hammer because of the stats and that he shouldn't have been considered a lootwhore for wanting to roll on it. (page 6, near the bottom) Now I would understand that if say he bagged his hammer and was using his epic as a primary at the time but from Dost's log...
By Leland's own admittance he was using the hammer as his primary...not his epic, thereby making him ineligible for the mace according to SoH loot policy. Now he knew the loot rules and yet he still tried for the weapon...I hope that he withdrew from the roll since the lantern is crap in comparison. That was on the 12th, the next log is dated the 30th. So two weeks later he is again trying to roll on the same item that he was previously excluded from based on loot policy. Did he think the loot rules changed in those two weeks...I'm curious on that. Dost then brought out that Leland eventually got the mace...I really hope it was by default and that he didn't roll against someone without the 100/100 primary seeing's as he had been excluded twice.[Sun Oct 12 22:20:45 2003] Myrlena tells sohmace:4, 'link yer weapons please'
[Sun Oct 12 22:21:18 2003] Myrlena tells sohmace:4, 'dost.. what do you use as yer weapon atm'
[Sun Oct 12 22:21:24 2003] You tell sohmace:4, 'Prelate's Lantern'
[Sun Oct 12 22:22:13 2003] Lelandpain tells sohmace:4, 'sorry, missed it hehe using smithing hammer'
In regards to the gloves incident...
But Zzash recounts it as:The gloves open up to people over 188 smithing. Then 150. Then open. (There were no restrictions when they were sending the join channel info). I was busy buffing people and such of the sort so there is a lot I missed.. {For some reason, people always sent me the tells for shammy buffs hehe.) I join the channel. I didn't even check if there was anyone else in it. Subtle sends me a tell asking me if I want them. I tell him to roll the gloves twice. I was told to loot them and the congrats Spam was in the channel. Hell, half the stuff I have now is do to default. I didn't know there were others in the channel till the channel was lit up with congrats messages
So it looks as if when Leland joined the channel he somehow communicated to Subtle that he had a skill of 188+ and thus won as default based on his 188+ skill instead of because no one wanting them. If there were no restrictions whatsoever why tell Subtle you have a skill of 188+ other than to win the gloves by default? Now if Leland never told Subtle he had a skill of 188+ my hat is off to Subtle for knowing what everyone's smithing skill level was but not knowing who in the guild already has the +15% hammer. My take on the matter Leland logs in the channel after open call and states he has a 188+ skill to win the gloves failing to mention that he already has the +15% hammer thus tricking the loot disperser and those rolling against him.The rules are 188 skill first, then 150, then open. The reasons are obvious to anyone who has ever raised this skill. The loot channel is called for 188 skill then 3:13 later 150 skill, another 00:56 later an open list call. From first call to loot the time taken was 5:58 as we wanted to move fast during which folks are doing cc, moving, talking. My eyes grow wide as the open call comes through as I have been wanting a chance at these for a long time as they are a significant upgrade for me. As I am scrolling frantically to find the channel name I hear Subtle say "wait, wait Leland has over 188 skill so he wins." Immediately a group member says bullshit he has the 15% mod hammer also, and I was saying the same thing in the cleric channel
I still call bullshit on not knowing anyone else was in the channel. I don't care how busy I am buffing, if I am rolling on something that is one hell of a upgrade for me I'm going to check at least once and see who I am rolling against. It's just human nature to be curious about your competition for an upgrade.
Now even if he really, truly, honest to god never checked the channel. Wouldn't you think something was odd if you had to tell someone not once, but twice to roll the gloves? A: Why do they have to ask you twice if you want the item if you are the only one in the channel unless Rot is harrassing the raidleader wanting them more. B: Why tell him to roll the gloves if you are the only one in the channel...who are you rolling against? Rot? C: If you were in charge of the tradeskills, how could you possibly think that no one would want those gloves as an upgrade? Had you guys killed the mob enough times that everyone already had the gloves besides yourself?
Next time try the excuse that you didn't know that the gloves and the hammer wouldn't add 30% to your smithing

Tiatiah
P.S. In regards to Leland calling Saphdia a powertripping, control bitch...tell me one raid leader that isn't a control freak? Sorry...make that a successful raid leader. I don't know a single raid leader that is sunshine and rainbows during a raid. If someone doesn't take control and lead the raid, you ain't getting anywhere. I lead a number of hate/fear raids when I was working on my epic. I went from bouncy and perky and fluffy bunnies in guild chat to excel spreadsheets and hotkeyed raid instructions that barked orders to the raid. I remember being called a bossy bitch several times but atleast I knew I was doing my job as a raid leader. The times that my raids wiped and had nasty CR's were the the times that I lost control of the raid and people weren't listening. So if I were Saph, I would take being called a powertripping, control bitch as a HUGE compliment

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Re:
I'd have less trouble believing that ifSo it looks as if when Leland joined the channel he somehow communicated to Subtle that he had a skill of 188+ and thus won as default based on his 188+ skill instead of because no one wanting them. If there were no restrictions whatsoever why tell Subtle you have a skill of 188+ other than to win the gloves by default? Now if Leland never told Subtle he had a skill of 188+ my hat is off to Subtle for knowing what everyone's smithing skill level was but not knowing who in the guild already has the +15% hammer. My take on the matter Leland logs in the channel after open call and states he has a 188+ skill to win the gloves failing to mention that he already has the +15% hammer thus tricking the loot disperser and those rolling against him.
a) The guildleader's wife (and everyone else in the guild, it seems) knew he had the hammer,
b) He wasn't supposedly (again, according to multiple guild officers) running/co-running the tradeskill department and between two people doing most of the combines for the guild, and
c) Other people's versions don't coincide on the fact that he stated his skill in the channel.
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I see her argument if the spirit in which they were intended to be used meant that the gloves were intended for the tradeskill orientated. The only contradiction would be if Subtle knew he had the hammer and still told him to loot it. If Leland knew that the gloves were primarily for tradeskillers, and he should have seeings how it was first done 188 then 150 then open, the considerate thing to do would to shoot Subtle a tell saying hey I have the +15% hammer but the gloves are a massive upgrade, any objections to me rolling on it? I don't buy Subtle knowing that he had the +15% hammer and still giving him the +15% gloves...but am willing and able to buy it if Subtle says otherwise.Wouldn't have an argument with that at all, Nasreen, were it not that the 'last straw' that happened was done with the blessing of the guildleader.
Subtle tells him to loot something.
He loots it.
He is booted for looting it because 'the guildleaders felt he broke the rules and the spirit in which they were intended to be used'.
You see a logical contradiction?
What I really don't buy is Leland claiming to have no knowledge of anyone rolling against him because he was busy buffing the raid. He apparently watched the loot calls to know that it went from 188 to 150 to open. Then he magically joins an empty channel which he somehow was lucky enough to catch the name of in between buffs. Then he was again lucky enough to catch the two, not one but two tells from Subtle asking him if he really wanted the gloves and fortunately had enough time in between all the buffing to respond not once, but twice telling Subtle to roll the gloves. Now mind you, Subtle is rolling these gloves between Leland and the minions of no one in that magical loot channel where it is just him. Again he is fortunate enough to catch the message from Subtle announcing him as the winner right before the flood of gratz's coming from the once empty chat channel, conveniently not seeing someone mention his +15% hammer 16 seconds before he looted the gloves.
So my best guess is it went something like this.
Fight.
Fight.
Fight.
Mob dead Yea!
Buff me please.
Loot is...
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
/join gloves 188+ smithing
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
/join gloves 150+ smithing
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
/join gloves open
/join gloves
There is no one in this channel besides me and Subtle.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Subtle: you want the gloves?
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
There is no one in this channel besides me and Subtle.
Yep. roll them.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Subtle: no really, you want the gloves?
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
There is no one in this channel besides me and Subtle.
yes...please roll them.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Buff me please.
Subtle: Ok...Leland wins, please loot
There are 7 people in this channel besides me and Subtle.
Gratz!
Buff me please.
Gratz!
Gratz!
Buff me please.
Gratz!
Gratz!
Hey where's my buff?
Gratz!
Gratz!
No really...where is my buff?
Wait...Leland has the +15% hammer!
Buff me please.
1 Mississippi.
Buff me please.
2 Mississippi.
3 Mississippi.
Buff me please.
4 Mississippi.
5 Mississippi.
Hey where's my buff?
6 Mississippi.
7 Mississippi.
Buff me please.
8 Mississippi.
9 Mississippi.
No really...where is my buff?
10 Mississippi.
11 Mississippi.
Buff me please.
12 Mississippi.
Buff me please.
13 Mississippi.
14 Mississippi.
Buff me please.
15 Mississippi.
16 Mississippi.
Yae I have new gloves!
Hey where's my buff?
No really...where is my buff?
I think Juujuu has summed it up very nicely. Very bad form and personal advancement rather than guild advancement.
Tiatiah