What is a soul ?

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Salmon go back to where they were spawned to spawn and die... they're not aware of mortality, it's instinctual and still proves nothing to the point of being aware of their own mortality. Maybe they just saw other elephants dying and thought "ok !"

(sorry i misread the context of your post, but i just got home from work... and i've had no coffee)

[Embar Angylwrath]

Not at all the same.....because animals are not aware of their own mortality. That is what seperates us.......we know we are doomed to die.

Many higher mammals seem to be aware of their own mortality... and bseides, you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that fear is the animal's response to death, and then say that animals don't know what death is.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Not at all the same.....because animals are not aware of their own mortality. That is what seperates us.......we know we are doomed to die

I disagree. With seeing your buddies get mauled by the lion and eaten while still alive and doing everything you can to avoid that same fate, I think animals know and I think they know better than we do. Elephant graveyards could be another example.

Elephant graveyards are a myth.

[Select]

Elephants don't always see others dying in the graveyards. The yards are usually many, many miles from where the herd ranges.

Animal Planet and Discovery <3

They aren't like what we all saw in The Lion King, but they do happen.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Not at all the same.....because animals are not aware of their own mortality. That is what seperates us.......we know we are doomed to die

I disagree. With seeing your buddies get mauled by the lion and eaten while still alive and doing everything you can to avoid that same fate, I think animals know and I think they know better than we do. Elephant graveyards could be another example.

Elephant graveyards are a myth.

Well shit and here Select and I were having an argument in and of itself... way to pee in the shower =(

Ok so higher mammals perhaps, but I don't think elephants are the smartest of the animal kingdom. Again having never been an elephant or asked one i can't say for certain, and having essentially no knowledge of elephants aside from my own personal bits and pieces of knowledge I'm speaking on pure speculation.

Ok then fine... do animals have a soul ? Or do they simply live their lives, serve their purpose and die ?

[Select]

I don't have the right word for it, so maybe "elephant graveyard" evokes the image of the myth like we saw in The Lion King, but they have been known to leave the herd to die and they will die in an area where others have gone to die. These are small groups, though. If large groups of carcasses are found it's likely natural disaster or poachers or something that took them out together.

Also, Ari, elephants have been known to mourn the dead when coming upon the carcass of another elephant. I think that too says they have a grasp on what death is beyond instinctual fight or flight.

[Select]

And yes, I believe animals have a soul.

When it comes to animals of lesser intelligence, I question, but then I remind myself that I believe the mind and soul are separate but intertwined... but I still wonder.

[Mukik]

I could sit here and argue we have a soul, with the near deaths and the dreams people experience, but then I only have one stumbling block in that belief. Each time I have been put under for nasal/throat surgery the last 2 years, I dont recall any dreams or activity what so ever. Anyone else notice this phenomenon?

[Alluveal]

Not sure you'd get the same effect on anaesthesia as you would with an NDE. Most people who die and are brought back don't experience the usual scenario anyway: white light, friends/family, tunnel, etc. About 20% report them (from recent studies.) Scientists and doctors claim they can "recreate" the effect, but all they have done (that I can tell,) is to recreate the tunnel vision portion which is not saying much, imho. They also discount the very very small percent who do not have a "white light" experience, but a negative one (they go to the bad place, in these cases.)

As for animals, I know many can sense when they are going to die (barring quick, freak accidents/incidents.) I can't say one way or another if they understand death. I have a difficult time believing that anyone has gotten into the mind of an animal in such a way that would suggest that anyone (besides the animal,) understands WTF goes on within its waking thought and(potential) emotion. Consult a pet psychic or get the doggie swami out and go for broke.

[Select]

They also discount the very very small percent who do not have a "white light" experience, but a negative one (they go to the bad place, in these cases.) I laughed at that and then felt bad (sort of). I find the idea of living a life out with that belief and the threat of return, funny.

[Kulaf]

Not at all the same.....because animals are not aware of their own mortality. That is what seperates us.......we know we are doomed to die.

Many higher mammals seem to be aware of their own mortality... and bseides, you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that fear is the animal's response to death, and then say that animals don't know what death is.

I am unware of any scientific study showing any animal is aware of it's own mortality other than simple responses to pain or fear of attack. Fear is an animals reponse to attack, the "survival instinct".......you know exactly what I meant so please stop playing the idiot.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Not at all the same.....because animals are not aware of their own mortality. That is what seperates us.......we know we are doomed to die.

Many higher mammals seem to be aware of their own mortality... and bseides, you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that fear is the animal's response to death, and then say that animals don't know what death is.

I am unware of any scientific study showing any animal is aware of it's own mortality other than simple responses to pain or fear of attack. Fear is an animals reponse to attack, the "survival instinct".......you know exactly what I meant so please stop playing the idiot.

That was my point as well. And knowing you're going to die of natural causes is also different in my opinion. Many humans know when they're about to die as well, not all but some do. the white tunnel effect has never had much bearing in my mind, but that plays into a Christian aspect of a heaven versus a hell, and I don't believe in either so I don't buy that.

I had a surgery when i was 3. I remember more of an out of body kind of experience over it. Watching the doctors and seeing myself laying on the operating table and as a 3 year old I'm not really sure how I'd be capable of such a thing unless it had happened. Maybe it did and maybe it didn't.

I think animals have a soul as well, I think it's what makes them capable of domestication and of loving us as their humans, and of protecting their young to the same extent of death for the young kind of thing.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Not at all the same.....because animals are not aware of their own mortality. That is what seperates us.......we know we are doomed to die.

Many higher mammals seem to be aware of their own mortality... and bseides, you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that fear is the animal's response to death, and then say that animals don't know what death is.

I am unware of any scientific study showing any animal is aware of it's own mortality other than simple responses to pain or fear of attack. Fear is an animals reponse to attack, the "survival instinct".......you know exactly what I meant so please stop playing the idiot.

No Kulaf, I didn't know what you meant. You implied animals were capable of the emotion called "fear", and that "fear" in animals could be caused by the animal knowing it could die.

You also mentioned throwing yourself on a grenade as proof that we have a soul. That, too, is hardwired into animals. You see it when a mother will attempt to save its offspring by confronting the attacker and exposing itself to mortal harm... or you see it in communal groups where a species like chimps will work together to drive off a predator, each one exposing themselves to death for the greater good.

[Klast Brell]

Ari:
I think you are one of the most thoughtful and effective communicators on this board, but in this case you must have had blinders on.

1 The word "I" is in there. For a moment lets assume that you meant that I didn't give my personal view of what a soul is, but my view of what I think other people believe the soul is. I can understand that. A large portion of my post was dedicated to exactly that.

2 I do not believe in the soul. But saying that I do not believe in the should does not say what I think it is. It does not answer the question that was asked. I don't believe in Santa Claus either but if asked what Santa is I would tell you about presents, reindeer and Ho Ho Ho. The soul is a myth, and I am telling you what I think that myth is.

3 It is not necessary to use the word "I" it is implied. If you asked me what a table was I would tell you that it is a flat surface with multiple legs. I don't need to use the word "I" to tell you what "I" think something is.

Kulaf:
There are indeed plenty of examples of a parent's sacrifice for their offspring in nature. From the spider that provides its body as the first meal for it's hatchlings To the bird that pretends to have a broken wing to draw predators away from it's nest. The spider could leave and not be eaten and the bird could fly away. But in each case the lives of their offspring would be lost. If you believe that is instinct then how can you separate that from similar behavior on the part of a human. Parents sacrifice for their children. Biological they have to. It is inconvenient to be hobbled by pregnancy. To devote calories to another so that they may grow inside you like a parasite. And afterward you continue to sacrifice. Sharing your food with that child so that they survive.

Look at it from an economic perspective. You hate welfare and redistribution of wealth. But even the most ardent fiscal conservative has no problem with feeding clothing and housing these unemployed sponges for decades if they are their own children.

[Alluveal]

They also discount the very very small percent who do not have a "white light" experience, but a negative one (they go to the bad place, in these cases.) I laughed at that and then felt bad (sort of). I find the idea of living a life out with that belief and the threat of return, funny.

Many of those people who experience the bad side of it come back a changed person. I read this book written by an ER doctor who had been an extremely stubborn and severe atheist all his life. He saw so many people die and come back--some of which had NDE's. In one case, the man lost vitals multiple times and each time he was revived, he came back screaming, begging for the doctor to save him, telling the doctor, "you don't understand, I was in Hell. Save me." The doctor (who now believes in something, though he isn't sure exactly what--not really an agnostic,) said he had never seen such a profound look of fear in all his experience in his profession.

Now, for all I know these experiences could just be guilt or fear of facing judgment in the afterlife, but they (like the white light scenarios) are equally as exact with one another and almost identical in theme, nature and content. And a good portion of NDE peeps also experience some form of OBE (out of body experience,) and have been able to describe in great detail the goings on around them after having lost vitals.

But, in the end, who knows. I can't said I'm "excited" to find out here. =) But, I'm certainly not afraid of it.

[Alluveal]

Not at all the same.....because animals are not aware of their own mortality. That is what seperates us.......we know we are doomed to die.

Many higher mammals seem to be aware of their own mortality... and bseides, you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that fear is the animal's response to death, and then say that animals don't know what death is.

I am unware of any scientific study showing any animal is aware of it's own mortality other than simple responses to pain or fear of attack. Fear is an animals reponse to attack, the "survival instinct".......you know exactly what I meant so please stop playing the idiot.

No Kulaf, I didn't know what you meant. You implied animals were capable of the emotion called "fear", and that "fear" in animals could be caused by the animal knowing it could die.

You also mentioned throwing yourself on a grenade as proof that we have a soul. That, too, is hardwired into animals. You see it when a mother will attempt to save its offspring by confronting the attacker and exposing itself to mortal harm... or you see it in communal groups where a species like chimps will work together to drive off a predator, each one exposing themselves to death for the greater good.

Many also have what humans (mostly) do not or rather, are lacking what humans HAVE. When they give birth to a creature with severe congenital defects, they will usually abandon that offspring. Humans go out of their way to maintain that those born with birth defects are a protected class. Maybe that's why you don't see a lot of animals with these defects in the wild. They're cleaning their own gene pool in a sense. That's one thing I often wonder about the process of evolution and how it fits in to the human race.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I still say if I have a child with defects I'm putting it down.

[Ddrak]

That's one thing I often wonder about the process of evolution and how it fits in to the human race.

The human race is no longer evolving in that sense. Evolution requires survival of the fittest, and by all accounts the "fittest" (meaning most wealthy/materially successful) humans are practicing birth control...

Dd

[Alluveal]

That's one thing I often wonder about the process of evolution and how it fits in to the human race.

The human race is no longer evolving in that sense. Evolution requires survival of the fittest, and by all accounts the "fittest" (meaning most wealthy/materially successful) humans are practicing birth control...

Dd

Yeah, that's exactly what I was wondering, Dd. But, I feel that's part of our "humanity" in a sense. I try to imagine world based on pure ration and natural selection and I can think of nothing more horrifying. It would make a good sci-fi / meta fiction book.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

For a moment lets assume that you meant that I didn't give my personal view of what a soul is, but my view of what I think other people believe the soul is. I can understand that. A large portion of my post was dedicated to exactly that.

2 I do not believe in the soul. But saying that I do not believe in the should does not say what I think it is. It does not answer the question that was asked. I don't believe in Santa Claus either but if asked what Santa is I would tell you about presents, reindeer and Ho Ho Ho. The soul is a myth, and I am telling you what I think that myth is.

Klast that was exactly what I was looking for when I asked for the clarification, thank you =)

Alluveal : Very nice point on the natural selection at work. I always wondered what I would do if I was diagnosed as having a child with sever birth defects. I mean deafness or blindness or something is one thing and can be overcome, but i mean an almost incapacitated child... and I decided (and I still feel this way, however I haven't been fact) that I would indeed have the abortion. I didn't feel it was fair to try and place a child with such special needs for adoption and hope the home it was provided could and would care for it. I, having (at this point 4) other children never felt I'd be capable of providing the security or the financial responsibility that such a child required.

Dd : I'm not sure I agree, but thats ok