Fundamental Differences

[Partha]

See, now you're seeing the true face of conservatism.

And let's not forget - On average, we spend much more per person than any other country in the world on health care. There's every indication that after we implement a national health care system that the effect on taxpayers will be nowhere near as dramatic as advertised - the only big losers on all this are the insurance companies, which will no longer be able to just deny everything they think they can get away with to maximize profit. And what's standing in the way? Embar with his 'MINE MINE MINE' Veruca Salt impersonation.

[Taxious]

And what's standing in the way? Embar with his 'MINE MINE MINE' Veruca Salt impersonation.

LOL

[Garrdor]

Hey, "high skilled" healthcare workers deserve their huge paychecks. Same with Doctors. I mean, if they went to school for THAT long to provide a service, they should get HOOKED UP, YO.

[Baginns Hobbiton]

Hey there,

I personally am all for denying treatment for those who cannot pay......or at least offer trade in the form of chickens.

This might be the most inhuman thing I have ever read on this board. You would rather have people die than loose some discretionary income? Really? "Sorry Ma'am, your husband is not going to make it. You see, your credit card was declined."

I think this topic boils down into one fundamental question: Do we have a responsibility for our fellow man?

Liberals will tend to say we do, while conservatives will tend to say we don't. Personally, I feel we do up to a certain point. I believe I have a moral obligation to help those who cannot help themselves. On a corporate level, I feel my government has the same obligation to its citizens.

Do I think the government should support those too lazy to get a job? No
Do I think the government should provide jobs, or help support those who are unable to work them? Yes

What's so bad about socializing health care again?? Everyone I play SoD with in Canada absolutely loves it. I wouldn't mind paying 50% of my paycheck to taxes if I never had to deal with a fucking insurance agency again.

Wait until you make 6 figures, and then see if you feel the same way.

My wife and I are slowly approaching a 6 figure household income and we both feel this way. I trust my government, whose purpose is to serve the people, to handle health care way more than I trust insurance companies, whose purpose is to serve their investors. Of course it's not going to be as efficient, and we should work on that, but I would much rather pay more in taxes to make sure everyone has health care than send my money to the CEO and investors of United Health Care or Blue Cross Blue shield. Health care should be about health, not about making money.

[Lurker]

I feel my government has the same obligation to its citizens.

Citizens decide what obligations - or values and priorities - our government has. If society finds it acceptable for people to bleed to death outside an emergency room, then the laws will be changed so hospitals aren't forced to provide treatement and Kulaf can save a few hundred on his insurance premiums. That's how democracy works. Thankfully we've decided the higher cost is worth it. I have no idea how that gets twisted into being tyranny in some peoples mind.

Do I think the government should provide jobs, or help support those who are unable to work them? Yes

Government should not be providing jobs just for the sake of providing jobs. If there's work to be done and the government is best suited to do it, or the only entity capable of doing it, that's different.

Of course it's not going to be as efficient, and we should work on that, but I would much rather pay more in taxes to make sure everyone has health care than send my money to the CEO and investors of United Health Care or Blue Cross Blue shield. Health care should be about health, not about making money.

Actually, a public option would be more efficient. Medicare and VA health care are cheaper and have much higher satisfaction than most private insurance. CBO scoring showed the public plan in the House bill would lower cost by 150 billion over ten years. Based on the income you are describing you wouldn't be paying any additional taxes.

[Garrdor]

I hope when I get to my 'six figure salary' life landmark, I can FINALLY afford that nice humvee and house in the hills. Oh boy oh boy oh boy!

[Harlowe]

"Tyranny" is the latest "best word ever" of the extremists. The black helicoptor folks that (as Lurker has said before) went into hiding during the Bush era and were perfectly peachy with anything the administration did in the name of "protecting us". Not only were they peachy about it, they were very quick to label people who had a problem with the actions taken by that administration as unpatriotic and people that hated America. They weren't American, they were ....probably French. You will not hear a sensible or honest person use the term tyranny when discussing services provided to citizens. It's Michelle Bachmann's rally cry. It's the cry of the irrational extremists.

[Lurker]

OMG you have such a potty mouth!

*stamps feet*

*waves fists*

[Select]

You haven't seen enough summers on this planet for me to take that comment seriously.

I'd take him seriously. So what if he isn't old? He's still of voting age, living on his own, and working and paying taxes. At what age would you consider him worthy of taking seriously (which really boils down to respect)? Again, he's still a voter, a taxpayer, and has an impact on the direction this country goes.

[Klast Brell]

And businesses can claim depreciation on all their stuff.
My shit gets old too. My car is 6 years old. A business can take the full value of a car as a deduction on their taxes over 5 years. I would love to take 1/5th of a Toyota Corrola as a tax deduction every year.

Sorry man. You can scream all you want about food stamps and unemployment benefits. The amount of your tax dollars that goes to that pales in comparison to corporate welfare.

Embar wrote
"Wait until you make 6 figures, and then see if you feel the same way."

Social security tax is capped at (last time I checked) 85K. Capital gains are taxed lower than income. The number of tax deductions available to the wealthy are so numerous that the AMT was passed in to law. Even then there are enough deductions that the wealthy can dodge huge chunks of that tax Burden. The top tax rate is 35%. The top AMT rate is 28%. Look up the 2007 tax return Dick Cheney released. The Cheneys reported adjusted gross income of 3.4 Million. But still managed to pay only 602 K in taxes. Somehow they were able to go from 35% to 18% despite the 28% AMT.

If someone is putting a gun to your head making you buy a starving man a sandwich, then they are also putting a gun to my head and making me buy a rich man a sandwich.

[Fobbon Lazyfoot]

I see no reason that people shouldn't be able to use the facilities of their own choice if they want to and pay the gap between what the government would have paid for the procedure and what it actually cost.

The phrase "separate but equal" ring a bell?

Allowing facilities that provide, or claim to provide, or even create the illusion of providing a better form of healthcare than the government creates a situation where the government-supplied services, which are theoretically designed to provide equal treatment to everyone regardless of social race, class, or gender, are inherently inferior.

It's the same problem as with public/private primary education.

[Embar Angylwrath]

You haven't seen enough summers on this planet for me to take that comment seriously.

I'd take him seriously. So what if he isn't old? He's still of voting age, living on his own, and working and paying taxes. At what age would you consider him worthy of taking seriously (which really boils down to respect)? Again, he's still a voter, a taxpayer, and has an impact on the direction this country goes.

Same applies to you Select. You haven't seen enough of life to know what you'll need later on. Its the same reason I don't take 5 year olds seriously when they say they know they need another ice cream. They aren't experienced enough to know they are ignorant. Just like you and Tax.

At least Tax was mature enough to see what I was saying. You however....

[Select]

You didn't answer my question. At what age do you deem someone worthy of taking seriously? Ari's age? Allu? Harlowe? Ara?

Tax seems very content with his current living situation and there was a long post about it before. He's living cheaply and seems to have everything he "needs" to be content. I think your extravagant "needs" are really wants you can't part with. Someone older, Klast, has the same opinion.

Its the same reason I don't take 5 year olds seriously when they say they know they need another ice cream

That is very sad. A 5-year-old can't vote/shape the country and Tax can. You shouldn't alienate and talk down to the younger generations, but rather approach them with respect and as a mentor if you believe they're so misguided and inexperienced. All things considered, they are equal citizens. You know that age doesn't necessarily make someone wise and worthy of respect.

[Lurker]

The phrase "separate but equal" ring a bell?

"Separate but equal" arguments don't apply.

Ddrak used the word "facilities" and that might be causing your confusion, but we're talking about health insurance. There's no "separate but equal" issue with public/private education, and there wouldn't be any issue with different insurance plans for health care. If you can afford better then you can get better, and that holds true for schools, health insurance, car insurance, food, homes, and a billion other things.

Select,
I don't think Taxious gave the matter much thought when he suggested he'd be fine giving up 50% of his income if he made six figures to provide health coverage for everyone. Much the same way I don't think he gave it much thought when he said he would love to get paid to sit in a room goofing off, indefinately. I don't think Embar was out of line saying Taxious didn't have enough life experience to say what he was saying, and I don't think he did it in a rude way.

[Embar Angylwrath]

You didn't answer my question. At what age do you deem someone worthy of taking seriously? Ari's age? Allu? Harlowe? Ara?

A maturity level, which can vary with age. You're not there. Tax isn't there either (in regards to the nature of my post)

[Select]

Select,
I don't think Taxious gave the matter much thought when he suggested he'd be fine giving up 50% of his income if he made six figures to provide health coverage for everyone. Much the same way I don't think he gave it much thought when he said he would love to get paid to sit in a room goofing off, indefinately. I don't think Embar was out of line saying Taxious didn't have enough life experience to say what he was saying, and I don't think he did it in a rude way.

Oh, I can agree with that. It's just in previous posts, I've seen a disdain for younger people from Embar, so I'm trying to see where he stands. Though maturity level is very subjective, so thank goodness voting starts at 18.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Since I'm roughly the same age as them, what do you think of me Embar?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Since I'm roughly the same age as them, what do you think of me Embar?

It shouldn't matter what I think. What matters is what you think of yourself.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

It doesn't, I'm just curious given how offended Select is.

[Select]

Nah, I didn't bring up what he thought of me. I kept it focused on Tax and what I've seen in the past. I do find it disappointing that some seniors will treat someone in their mid-twenties like a 5-year-old, but since maturity is subjective, it's comforting to take it as an individual issue.