Osama Bin Laden ...dead

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Thats why terror alerts were raised immediately after news of Osama's killing got out.

[Lurker]

Gotta give Obama props on this. The mission was high risk. That was a gut-check call.

No we don't. The credit goes to the Navy SEAL program. They're the ones who found him. Obama was too busy photoshopping a birth certificate.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just incredibly stupid (the birth certificate comment can be taken either way), but I'll try for a serious answer anyways.

Embar means that it would have been very easy for Obama to just order a missile strike and be left with no certainty as to the results. And while it's great for you to give much deserved credit to the Navy SEAL program (although they weren't the ones who "found him" btw, they just carried our the raid), we know that if the mission had ended badly all of the blame would have gone to Obama for ordering them in.

[Harlowe]

Gotta give Obama props on this. The mission was high risk. That was a gut-check call.

No we don't. The credit goes to the Navy SEAL program. They're the ones who found him. Obama was too busy photoshopping a birth certificate. I'm surprised the building wasn't rigged to blow up if something went down.

I guess we know who isn't irrationally biased.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Gotta give Obama props on this. The mission was high risk. That was a gut-check call.

No we don't. The credit goes to the Navy SEAL program. They're the ones who found him. Obama was too busy photoshopping a birth certificate.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just incredibly stupid (the birth certificate comment can be taken either way), but I'll try for a serious answer anyways.

Embar means that it would have been very easy for Obama to just order a missile strike and be left with no certainty as to the results. And while it's great for you to give much deserved credit to the Navy SEAL program (although they weren't the ones who "found him" btw, they just carried our the raid), we know that if the mission had ended badly all of the blame would have gone to Obama for ordering them in.

Lurker is correct, that's exactly what I mean.

The easy way out was to bomb the facility from 35,000 feet, risking no American lives. However, that would have left doubt in everyone's mind if bin Laden was even there whenit was bombed. Obama made a gutsy call that had a higher potential reward. He knew a confirmed kill or capture would be a massive morale blow to al Qaeda and a massive win for the western world. It should be noted that reports indicate his staff was split on the question and no consensu could be found. Obama made the call himself and I congratulate him on it. He did something that Clinton could have done (we knew where bin Laden was and he was under daily observation for a time), and what Bush should have done.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Other observations....

I'm glad the Obama adminstration came to its senses and declined to release photos of bin Laden. There was very little upside to it. Jihadists and conspiracy theorists wouldn't be persuaded, most Americans and people in the western world believe bin Laden is dead, and the pictuers themselves could have been used as a rallying cry targeted to on-the-fence Muslim extremists. Good call, President Obama.

Flip side though... why in the HELL would we want to reveal the capture of electronic intel? No need to advertise the wealth of info the US obtained from seizing electronic storage devices, and then either deliberately leaking, or unable to control a leak, that the US has detailed information on the locations and habits of very important al Qaeda targets. I can only hope that the "leak" is feint.. and that the "leak" is designed to make some al-Qaeda leaders nervous enough to break protocol and perhaps inadvertantly reveal themselves to the intel community.

If so... bravo Mr. President, well done. If not... fumble on the play.

[Ddrak]

My guess on the ELINT is it would be obvious anyway given the number of computers they left behind without hard drives. The interesting question is whether the ISI report that they captured one of his sons and took him away was true.

Dd

[Turaylon Soulshadow]

Gotta give Obama props on this. The mission was high risk. That was a gut-check call.

No we don't. The credit goes to the Navy SEAL program. They're the ones who found him. Obama was too busy photoshopping a birth certificate.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just incredibly stupid (the birth certificate comment can be taken either way), but I'll try for a serious answer anyways.

Embar means that it would have been very easy for Obama to just order a missile strike and be left with no certainty as to the results. And while it's great for you to give much deserved credit to the Navy SEAL program (although they weren't the ones who "found him" btw, they just carried our the raid), we know that if the mission had ended badly all of the blame would have gone to Obama for ordering them in.

Lurker is correct, that's exactly what I mean.

The easy way out was to bomb the facility from 35,000 feet, risking no American lives. However, that would have left doubt in everyone's mind if bin Laden was even there whenit was bombed. Obama made a gutsy call that had a higher potential reward. He knew a confirmed kill or capture would be a massive morale blow to al Qaeda and a massive win for the western world. It should be noted that reports indicate his staff was split on the question and no consensu could be found. Obama made the call himself and I congratulate him on it. He did something that Clinton could have done (we knew where bin Laden was and he was under daily observation for a time), and what Bush should have done.

I have yet to see any confirmation.

[Ddrak]

I have yet to see any confirmation.

You are kidding, right?

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

Like I said... conspiracy theorists won't be swayed.

[Harlowe]

There is no reasoning with crazy. Try doing that with the Westboro crew.

I think the important message here is that ONLY the Navy SEALS should get credit for this incident that did not happen.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Here's a question related to the operation....

The mission was carried out using helicopters flying in from Afghanistan. Pakistan obviously had no advanced warning that the US was doing an operation on its soil. Yet the Pakistani air force never scrambled.

Stealh helicpoters?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Yep, they've been talking about them some today. Looks like some neat tech too.

[Kulaf]

Ground clutter if they stayed low. The only thing you could really make stealthy on a helo is for noise. Too many other exposed parts imo for stealth.

Not to mention they left it there without taking the opportunity to demo it. I doubt special forces would leave it sitting there without planting some charges or thermite or something. You can also probably assume that it's a CIA bird.

[Ddrak]

Here's a question related to the operation....

The mission was carried out using helicopters flying in from Afghanistan. Pakistan obviously had no advanced warning that the US was doing an operation on its soil. Yet the Pakistani air force never scrambled.

Stealh helicpoters?

Or the Pakistani Air Force isn't stupid and saw helicopters coming across from Afghanistan, decided that picking on the US really wasn't a great idea and conveniently ignored it.

You're also assuming Pakistan actually has radar coverage in crazy mountainous terrain...

Dd

[Torakus]

Here's a question related to the operation....

The mission was carried out using helicopters flying in from Afghanistan. Pakistan obviously had no advanced warning that the US was doing an operation on its soil. Yet the Pakistani air force never scrambled.

Stealh helicpoters?

Or the Pakistani Air Force isn't stupid and saw helicopters coming across from Afghanistan, decided that picking on the US really wasn't a great idea and conveniently ignored it.

You're also assuming Pakistan actually has radar coverage in crazy mountainous terrain...

Dd

If they came in from Afghanistan from Bagram, even going over the mountains they pass between two of Pakistan's larger flying AF bases, probably no more than 50 or so miles north of Peshawar. I think that PAF was notified (warned) that these aircraft would be in their airspace. I don't buy that these aircraft crossed the national ADIZ and then flew through paki airspace over relatively flat land for half of the trip in, entered the ADIZ around Abbottabad (where they were heard hovering) executed their mission, and then egressed similarly all unchallenged. I was born at night fellas, but it wasn't last night.

Pakistan knew. All the denial now just serves to keep the peace at home. The anti-American sentiment in that country is not from a small majority. If the Paki government ever admitted to knowing about an incursion, they would be out on their ass in a hurry.

Tora

[Embar Angylwrath]

As more and more news comes out about the op, it seems pretty clear this really wasn't a capture mission. This was a hit team. Last I heard therre was only one person with a firearm. He was dropped quickly. The rest of the kills were... a message perhaps? Or maybe they were killed as a precautionary measure so they wouldn't interfere with the mission inother ways?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Ground clutter if they stayed low. The only thing you could really make stealthy on a helo is for noise. Too many other exposed parts imo for stealth.

Not to mention they left it there without taking the opportunity to demo it. I doubt special forces would leave it sitting there without planting some charges or thermite or something. You can also probably assume that it's a CIA bird.

They blew up certain parts of the heli, for sure. Reports of explosions around the time of the operation in Abottabad are well documented.

[Ddrak]

As more and more news comes out about the op, it seems pretty clear this really wasn't a capture mission. This was a hit team. Last I heard therre was only one person with a firearm. He was dropped quickly. The rest of the kills were... a message perhaps? Or maybe they were killed as a precautionary measure so they wouldn't interfere with the mission inother ways?

I don't know what to believe. I can't say whether a SEAL team would accept an order to kill a person not presenting any resistance. In addition to the "unarmed" info, I also heard there was a pistol and an AK in the bedroom and Osama shoved his wife towards the SEALS while making for the AK (ie stupid).

Then we have the big deal being made of parsing administration statements to indicate Osama was subdued then executed. Again, would a SEAL team accept that order?

The whole thing is being played badly by the Administration, which is a pity.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ez 33:11a

Dd

[Harlowe]

My favorite Facebook status during this whole thing ...."Apparently Obama's Birth Certificate was Osama's last Horcrux".

[Embar Angylwrath]

The story keeps unfolding....

Apparently it WAS a stealth helicopter, as reported by the New York TImes. Aviation experts are chiming in too, saying (from picures released of destroyed helo), it had radar absorbing paint, sound dampening modifications and modified surfaces designed to make it hard for radar to get a clear picture of the bird.

I don't think the Pakistanis ever saw it until they were picking up the pieces out of the compound.