Holy Father given last rites

[Kulaf]

Or if you prefer a Monty Python reference:

Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is great.
When a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

[Aabe]

Sorry I misspelled it. It is Onan on Onin. Here is the biblial text from Genesis 38 of the KJB:

And she conceived again, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan. 5 And she yet again conceived, and bare a son; and called his name Shelah: and he was at Chezib, when she bare him. 6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar. 7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him. 8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased [1] the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.

One could argue the sin was disobeying a direct order from a prophet to impregnate his brothers wife. Not that he practiced birth control.

[Kulaf]

Main Entry: onan·ism
Pronunciation: 'O-n&-"niz-&m
Function: noun
1 : MASTURBATION
2 : COITUS INTERRUPTUS —onan·is·tic /"O-n&-'nis-tik/ adjective
Onan /'O-n&n/, Biblical character. In the Book of Genesis Onan was commanded by his father to impregnate the widow of his slain brother and to raise the offspring of the union. In order to avoid raising descendants for his late brother, however, Onan engaged in coitus interruptus.

[Akhbarali]

So technically he wasn't slain for jerking off, he was slain for jerking off before he banged his sister in law. Makes me feel so much better about the last 30 years of occasional late night porn viewing.

: dodges the Wrath the of God

Akhbar

[Ddrak]

The passage is pretty ambiguous in any translation. To establish a blanket ban on contraception based on that passage, in my opinion, is rather silly. After all, I tend to agree with Aabe - the disobedience seems to be the sin, not the masturbation.

The interesting thing is that Tamar goes on to disguise herself as a hooker, seduces her father-in-law and gets pregnant to him. He finds out she pretended to be a hooker, tries to kill her for it until she mentions that he was the John, and he then proclaims that she's got better morals than he does.

The whole passage is a big WTF and could far more easily be interpreted as promotion of prostitution. Deriving a ban on contraception in all forms is really shaky.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

It would be nice if they didn't choose someone a 1,000 years old.

I expected better from you Harlowe. Why all the hatin' on a man that wanted nothing more than human rights, protection of the innocent and basic human dignity?

I was referring to the list of candidates

Not that I am a big fan of the Vatican, but I wasn't Pope-hatin.

My bad Harlowe... misinterpreted your post.

Apologies.

[Embar Angylwrath]

JP2 was absolutely a conservative pope - in the sense "conservative" applies to Catholicism.

My biggest criticism of Catholicism is their stance on birth control - something I seriously question as biblical in any sense and even morally questionable. JP2 enforced and strengthened that stance - as you'd expect a conservative Catholic to do.

Dd

Pope John Paul II was liberal in some sense, conservative in others. Before you make a blanket statement on his papacy, I encourage you to read some of his positions on human rights, the Iraq war, the abuse of third world country resources by other nations and his outlook on the death penalty.

His views on abortion, birth control and women in the clergy are what might be identified as "conservative" relative to Western philosophy. However, his position on other issues would be classified as liberal.

John Paul II was his own man, both liberal and conservative.

[Ddrak]

Embar,

I encourage you to read Arathena's post given you've just made exactly the same mistake Aabe made.

JP2 was a conservative pope, as "conservative" applies to Catholicism.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

Arathena is misinformed, as are you. John Paul was selectively conservative, and selectively liberal. Labeling him "conservative" shows an ignorance of what Catholicism was before his tenure, and what it was after.

For instance... John Paul II didn't condemn homosexuals, in fact he embraced them, and as much acknowledged that homosexuality is something people are born with, not a conscious choice. What he admonished against was homosexual acts, not the homosexual.

As far as women in the Church goes... women have made great strides within the Church under his papacy. Women now give the Sacrament of Communion, head schools, run diocesan lay organizations.. in fact just about anything in the church (except priesthood and duties expressly reserved to a priest) is open to women. This was not the case before John Paul II.

There was no acceptance of birth control and abortion before John Paul, nor was there during his papacy, yet hemade other strides that opened up the Church and liberalized it many other areas. Again, read some of his positions, and I think you'll find that labeling him as "conservative", even within the context of Catholocism, is inaccurate and ignorant.

[Ddrak]

For instance... John Paul II didn't condemn homosexuals, in fact he embraced them, and as much acknowledged that homosexuality is something people are born with, not a conscious choice. What he admonished against was homosexual acts, not the homosexual.

That teaching was consistant with the Catholic Church's position prior to JP2's coming to the papacy in 1978.

As far as women in the Church goes... women have made great strides within the Church under his papacy. Women now give the Sacrament of Communion, head schools, run diocesan lay organizations.. in fact just about anything in the church (except priesthood and duties expressly reserved to a priest) is open to women. This was not the case before John Paul II.

I don't believe women were not expressly forbidden to undertake those roles pre-JP2. Reading Vatican II, it discusses men and women in the laity as equals and reserves no special role for either - in administering sacrements or other duties. Now while the sexual revolution has definitely advanced since JP2 became pope, I don't see that the permitted roles of women has changed, just culture in general has changed to be more accepting.

JP2 was essentially conservative. He continued the practices of the church that were in place before him, and continued slow changes that were already in the pipe before his papacy. He was definitely his "own man", as is everyone on the planet, but in being his "own man" he ran the role of a conservative. A compassionate one to be sure, but definitely conservative.

Besides - a non-conservative pope would destroy the church. It's a very old organization that doesn't take change too well.

Dd

[Fobbon Lazyfoot]

Love him or hate him, the Pope was a people person. I mean really. Presidents kiss babies, but the Pope would probably kiss unborn babies.

[Ddrak]

Well, he was a cunning linguist...

[Chants Evensong]

It has been Ordained:

Burz, you are now the Pope.

Saevrok, you are now a Cardinal.

False popes shall be trained.

That is all.

[Saevrok]

The first rule of the new catholic church is, you dont talk about the new catholic church.

[Burz]

Burz Pious.