SOMEONE'S gonna need health care

[Eidolon Faer]

By the way...not that I think this is workable here, or even necessarily morally acceptable...but have you read about Cuba's approach to the AIDS epidemic? They have an astonishingly low infection rate, at a quite manageable cost to the public.

[Lurker]

And THIS is something that needs to be in the bill if it's going to work, but it's going to be a hard sell to liberals on idealogical grounds. The new insurance system needs to have a way to address this from a behavior-of-patients standpoint.

I can get behind a penalty to encourage better use of health care from a patient standpoint, but I don't think it should be removal from the system. Steadily increasing fines maybe. Unless we're going to turn the uninsured away from the ER, removing people from the system for bad behavior would only compound the problem.

[Ddrak]

By the way...another such scenario is "You're pregnant, and your urine tests positive for cocaine." Congratulations, your options are a government-funded mandatory trip to the maximum-security wing of the Betty Ford Clinic, a government-funded mandatory abortion, or your government-funded insurance program drops your ass for the rest of your life.

I could get behind the first option. I don't think the government should be funding something like abortions unless the mother is at risk. Dropping the insurance just doesn't work, for the reason you stated in the prior post.

Dd

[Eidolon Faer]

Fines...turning them away from the ER...bullet in the head...frankly I don't care so long as mommy stays clean for 9 months. After that, she can do what she wants. The kid is going to have enough problems with a whacked-out mom and/or growing up in foster homes. He doesn't need to be born permanently neurologically-impaired.

[Eidolon Faer]

And yes, the Betty Ford Clinic is the option I prefer. But you just *know* that there are going to be idiots who scream "You can't do this!" and demand to be let back out on the street with their razor blade and glass pipe. The only two options I see are abortion and an effective death sentence, in that case. Fines and other demands for financial responsibility are a non-starter when dealing with someone known to be THAT irresponsible about other things.

Certain scenarios demand tough love.

[Harlowe]

Harleft. How embarrassing you copy Fallakin. Oh look we can all play this game. EmbarAss. You also did a fine job owning yourself in the back and forth with Lurker in this thread.

Well at least we have Eido for sensible debate. Thank god.

Eido, I agree with you ...up until the bullet in the head remark and funding abortions, I just can't get behind that, but I'm pretty sure you were being trite.

[Eidolon Faer]

Oh...I'd also be in favor of government-paid birth control implants for women who request it, and in favor of suggesting such to women who test positive for illicit drugs.

[Eidolon Faer]

Actually, Harlowe, I wasn't really kidding.

If you're going to do this, turning the uninsured away from the ER is both necessary and feasible since everyone will have insurance.

And yes, that makes being dropped for non-compliance a de-facto death sentence. It'll also probably create a black market, but I don't forsee large numbers of people in that situation.

A bullet in the head would probably be kinder.

[Lurker]

Eido, I agree with you ...up until the bullet in the head remark and funding abortions, I just can't get behind that, but I'm pretty sure you were being trite.

He didn't just say "funding abortions". He said mandatory. I think you'd get considerable opposition from the left, right, and center for Government forced abortions.

And the metaphorical "bullet in the head" penalty is a bit... drastic. Eidolon, do you think there's a less drastic solution that would get considerable compliance?

[Harlowe]

Doing anything "mandatory" to another person's body against their will goes against my whole "personal liberties above all" kind of political and moral compass.

[Eidolon Faer]

Like I said. Betty Ford Clinic on the taxpayer's dime.

Frankly, I'd rather fund an abortion than see another crack baby. Not that I am thrilled at the prospect of funding abortions. This situation is extreme enough that it's an option I will just have to live with.

But you cannot FORCE people to have an abortion, any more than you can get them into rehab against their will. The ACLU will have a shit fit.

The last recourse, therefore is the ancient precept, honored by government and parents alike: If I'm paying your bills, you live by my rules. Don't like it? Move out. Unfortunately, in this case, it's cold outside.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

If you use his first option, the Betty Ford Clinic one. Make that mandatory if someone tests positive for a "hard" drug, make them spend say 3-6months in rehab (longer if needed, but make that the standard). If they test positive again after that then kick them off the insurance (it fits with the whole "one person hurts the collective" mentality). Then you just have to be sure they're turned away for further care elsewhere, as to not drive up costs due to some deadbeat who can't pay his bill.

And in terms of a pregnant woman... I say force drugs on her so bad that it aborts the fetus thats going to be an expensive medical situation anyway. She'll either be so traumatized that she'll kill herself or she might give up the smack altogether... either way put her in rehab and follow the above method. (I should mention I'm being facetious in this line.)

And when I say hard drugs, I mean everything but Marijuana. I know its considered a "gateway" drug, but its really pretty harmless as long as you're not retarded.

[Eidolon Faer]

And yes, mandatory was a poor choice of words.

Those would be the set of three options you'd have to offer. And I'd have the abortions be government-funded simply to defuse any "blood from a turnip" financial arguments.

[Eidolon Faer]

Actually, that's a misconception, Harlowe.

Considerable evidence also shows that THC is quite harmful to the fetus. It causes a number of neurological development problems. They're just not as extreme as what cocaine does.

We DO test for Thc in neonates, and we see a lot more positives than for Amphetamine, Cocaine, or Opiates, largely due to the misconception that it's harmless.

[Eidolon Faer]

Sorry. Not Harlowe. Fallakin.

And damn. I thought MY suggestion could be characterized as inhumane.

[Lurker]

You have an 'Edit' button now that works for 15 minutes after you make a post.

[Harlowe]

My concern with funding abortions for anything other than the mother's life at risk, would increase the abortion rate or some might get more cavalier about their birth control method and use abortion as their back up.

I would definitely like to see birth control or tubal ligation funded, not mandatory though.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I understand its not exactly harmless to a fetus. I wasn't talking about the Pregnant Woman scenario in the first paragraph, I meant it as a whole. If we're gonna have a "nationalized healthcare" then we need a way to deal with drug addicts and dead beats as a whole, not just the Pregnant women.

[Harlowe]

I think it would be cheaper to just treat the dead beats and drug addicts for health issues that come up than paying for numerous rehab visits along with health issues. We can only do so much to help people help themselves.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

As I said, one rehab visit and if they offend again they get kicked off the insurance. You can't reform someone who doesn't want to be reformed and drug addicts/deadbeats are just another drain on society anyway.