Ethanol

[Arathena]

He speaks truth, Eidolon said nothing about the photon following a -straight- path. The only gravity well deep enough to -contain- a photon is associated with a black hole.. in which case it's going to turn about until it hits the bloody thing anyway.

[Ddrak]

Don't photons always follow straight paths? At least for some definition of "straight".

Dd

[Arathena]

They do, however, objects of significant mass are capable of affecting photons by the wierdities of gravity: The classic thought experiment is the one of rolliing a marble across a deformed sheet of rubber, where the deformation of the sheet of rubber can change the local definition of 'a straight line'. Relative to the photon, it will always travel in a straight line. An observer from a fixed, external frame may percieve something different. To us, a photon that just barely intercepts the escape limit of a black hole would, if we could see it, appear to spiral down much as water spins its way down a toilet bowl.

This is actually one of two ways of detecting black holes, and is pretty much the only way to detect non-electro-magnetically emissive matter outside the solar system - the deflection of a known background star pattern, a gravity lens effect. It's important to note that despite the name of the effect, the principle that it works on is -not- parallel to a classical optical lens, in which the presence of the lens changes the local velocity of light, through principles I don't understand well enough to explain.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Don't photons always follow straight paths? At least for some definition of "straight".

Dd

Gravity wells have been observed to change the direction of light.. curve it if you will. But then again, thats from our perspective. If you were riding the photon, it would appear that you were travelling in a straight line, since the bending of space (which is what makes the photon "curve") is relative to the observer, not the object in the well.

So, if you mean that the photon follows the edge of a plane, then yes, the photon flies straight, since the edge of the plane is warped by gravity. If you mean does it always fly straight relative to the view of an observer.. no, not always.

Also, CERN and some other researchers have succeeded in slowing and stopping a photon, then starting it up again. Well, I guess it's more accurate to say that they've devised a way to collect the information that makes up a photon, quantumly store it in the spin of another atom, and then release the photon again (actually release the quantum information that defines the photon, which results in the photon).

So depending on how you define a photon, there are mechanisms by which humans can slow, stop and even reverse the momentum of photons.

[Narith]

Narith:

You're a dumbass. Where do you think the car battery gets the energy from?

For that matter, why not hook a big motor to the car battery and drive your car forever on it? Why bother with the Hydrogen?

Oh? You mean like an eletric car? And the point of hydrogen would be because the zinc batteries now a days and the new ones comming out are still not well enough off to h old enough charge for extended trips, I was simply pointing out that Hydrogen could be extracted very easily from water, which you called me an idiot for, they have cars that run off pure batteries though they found it more effecient to make it a fuel and electric hybrid, but you called me an idiot for that, are there any other things that I can point out that already exsist that you would like to call me an idiot for?

[Relbeek Einre]

You do realize those batteries need to be CHARGED by an external power source, and that the hydrogen needs to be created by an external power source, right? right?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Narith:

You're a dumbass. Where do you think the car battery gets the energy from?

For that matter, why not hook a big motor to the car battery and drive your car forever on it? Why bother with the Hydrogen?

Oh? You mean like an eletric car? And the point of hydrogen would be because the zinc batteries now a days and the new ones comming out are still not well enough off to h old enough charge for extended trips, I was simply pointing out that Hydrogen could be extracted very easily from water, which you called me an idiot for, they have cars that run off pure batteries though they found it more effecient to make it a fuel and electric hybrid, but you called me an idiot for that, are there any other things that I can point out that already exsist that you would like to call me an idiot for?

[Narith]

Yes I realise that and never once was talking about a perpetual motion or a fuel source that never needed to be recharged. I was thinking a smaller power source inside the car it self for extracting the hydrogen to create the combustion but that is neither here nor there... I was talking about an alternative fuel source being hydrogen extracted from water and the extraction itself being done inside the instead of mass produced, you would still need the energy which came from batteries to create the gas used to create the combustion but it would solve the problem of being reliant on oil producing countries when you could simply extract the hydrogen from the water itself.

And Embar, all I have to say to you is.... Lick my pussy you closet case.

[Relbeek Einre]

Narith, you're sitll an idiot.

The energy required to extract the hydrogen from the water would need to be greater than or equal to the energy required to drive the vehicle, which means a "smaller power source" wouldn't do the job. If you had the power to extract the hydrogen contained within the vehicle itself, that power could drive the car.

Idiot.

[SicTimMitchell]

There are, however, several energy sources that are, from our perspective, essentially "free."

The only ones in wide use right now are hydroelectric and nuclear. Solar and wind are other possibilities. In fact, solar distillation could be a pretty efficient means of desalinization. (I actually have an idea for a small, lightweight plastic solar still that could be used on life rafts.)

Most plans for hydrogen fuel cells currently start with hydroelectric plants.

[SicTimMitchell]

P.S.,

Just to fuck with people, hydroelectric is really a form of solar power.

[Embar Angylwrath]

P.S.,

Just to fuck with people, hydroelectric is really a form of solar power.

So is burning wood.

[Relbeek Einre]

No it's not. There's a lot more than merely solar power at work there.

If burning wood is solar power, so is burning coal

[Ddrak]

Yep, burning coal is ultimately solar power. So is wind power. So is pretty much anything other than nuclear fusion.

(Fission is still technically solar power - the formation of the Uranium took energy)

Dd

[Relbeek Einre]

I resist that nomenclature as ultimately meaningless.

(Geothermal power is also non-solar, I believe.)

[Embar Angylwrath]

Yep, burning coal is ultimately solar power. So is wind power. So is pretty much anything other than nuclear fusion.

(Fission is still technically solar power - the formation of the Uranium took energy)

Dd

Following thisl ine of thought, I'd say that nuclear fusion is solar power too. Since all elements are formed in stars (suns) then the use of those elements would be solar energy as well.

[Ddrak]

Since all elements are formed in stars

Well, all except hydrogen. Which happens to be the primary fuel for fusion.

;)

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

So you're saying that we're already on a 100% hydrogen based energy system!

Environmentalists rejoice!

[Riggen]

Perhaps it should be called stellar energy rather than solar energy, since the heavier elements in our energy sources were formed in stars predating our own sun.

[Ddrak]

/agree Embar. 100% of our energy (give or take a fraction of a percent) can be traced back to hydrogen. :)

Dd