Pry-bit skool antics

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:30 pm

Relbeek Einre wrote:I
0-18 is not school age, as has been said several times, but you engage in a very familiar tactic in response - ignoring the facts.

So are you truly saying there's this big bubble of people, all white, in the age group of 0-4 yearsof age, that are mucking that stats?

Get real. You know better.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:39 pm

Oh.. and um...

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/050227/ap/d88gh7do0.html

Seems state governors know the public educational system is broken, too.

"We can't keep explaining to our nation's parents or business leaders or college faculties why these kids can't do the work," said Virginia Democratic Gov. Mark Warner, as the state leaders convened for the first National Education Summit aimed at rallying governors around high school reform.

Most of the summit's first day amounted to an enormous distress call, with speakers using unflattering numbers to define the problem. Among them: Of every 100 ninth-graders, only 68 graduate high school on time and only 18 make it through college on time, according to the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education.

Once in college, one in four students at four-year universities must take at least one remedial course to master what they should have learned in high school, government figures show.

Bill Gates weighs in...

"America's high schools are obsolete," Gates said. "By obsolete, I don't just mean that they're broken, flawed or underfunded, though a case could be made for every one of those points. By obsolete, I mean our high schools _ even when they're working as designed _ cannot teach all our students what they need to know today."

And we start to get to the meat of it...

Requiring tougher courses for all students, for example, could face opposition from parents and school officials, particularly if more rigor leads to lower test scores and costly training.

Broken system so bad that 45 state governors are there trying to fix the problem. And we have people like Partha and Beek who want to make it financially onerous for parents to take their kids out of a failed system and put them in to one that works.

If Beek and Partha REALLY cared about education, they'd be engaing in debate on how to bring the public school system more in line with private systems, since the private systems have a much better record of success.

Partha · Post by **Partha** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:03 pm

Embar Angylwrath wrote:
Partha wrote: Oh, and I read your article. Now, can you prove from the text of that article that there are no minorities in those public schools?
Can you prove that there aren't?

Nope, that's called insufficient data. However, since you're the one theorizing while I'm bringing data, it is incumbent upon you to provide hard data, numbnuts.

Now that you've been completely discredited:

If Beek and Partha REALLY cared about education, they'd be engaing in debate on how to bring the public school system more in line with private systems, since the private systems have a much better record of success.

As noted, the private systems, due to the ability to take who they want, will skew towards better results. As far as constructive debate, it takes two sides, not one side who would prefer dynamiting all public schools without realizing exactly WHY his private schools tend towards better results. Were it Akhbar I were discussing this with, it'd be worth it to debate. However, we're stuck with numbnuts, with whom debate is useless.

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 pm

And Embar, sensing utter defeat, changes the subject and goes for the ad hominem.

Very bad form, sirrah.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:17 am

Relbeek Einre wrote:And Embar, sensing utter defeat, changes the subject and goes for the ad hominem.

Very bad form, sirrah.

Like your last comment?

Interesting that you'll skip over an entire post with plenty of grist for debate, and then focus on one or two lines, claim it's an ad hominem attack, and use that as an excuse to retreat from the discussion.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:03 am

Here Beek, try this as a springboard for debate.

The public school system is a broken system. You agree or disagree? Seems most state governors, business leaders and college professors agree.

http://www.nga.org/nga/newsRoom/1,1169, ... 47,00.html

Private schools have a better academic achievement record than public schools. You agree or disagree? Seems the National Center for Educational Statistics agree.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2002/an ... e/sa03.asp

Parental involvement and parental accountability is the key factor determining the overall academic success of a school. You agree or disagree? Seems the Economic Policy Institute (non-partisan think tank) disagrees. (Read the executive summary)

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/books_privatepublic

Well then, what could possibly be the reason for private school success? Perhaps school culture and administrative accountability? Seems the National Center for Educational Statistics might agree.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2002/an ... e/sa02.asp

Now why again should parents not be allowed to use their tax money to select what school they'd like to send their children to? Because if you're telling me that vouchers would drain the public school system, my response to you would be: Its already broken man. Why send kids into a broken system when there are better alternatives out there?

You see, kids don't have time to wait. They keep growing. They aren't potholes. Why should kids suffer because you want to save a system? Why not give parents a choice through vouchers, AND fix the system? Then if after the system is fixed, and parents see it has a has a better educational product, parents will return to it. Isn't that a much better way?

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:13 am

I'm not interested in debating you when you adopt the pattern of changing the subject anytime you're losing.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:08 pm

Relbeek Einre wrote:I'm not interested in debating you when you adopt the pattern of changing the subject anytime you're losing.

Translation: Oh shit, gotta dodge!

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:40 pm

Yeah, Mr. Pot, you got that one right on the nose....

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:10 pm

Then be the bigger man and address the issues, instead of trying to find an excuse not to.

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:16 am

Um... why, when it will only end with you making another dodge? I engage in debates because I find them enjoyable. When my opponent engages in behavior that makes me not enjoy the debate, I have no reason to pursue it.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:24 am

Relbeek Einre wrote:Um... why, when it will only end with you making another dodge? I engage in debates because I find them enjoyable. When my opponent engages in behavior that makes me not enjoy the debate, I have no reason to pursue it.

You know, you keep replying to this thread, but keep avoiding the substance.

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:30 am

I'm kinda hoping to shame you into revisiting the substance of what you've been dodging before we branch to the new subject you tried to use in your dodge.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:37 pm

Seems to me that issue is done with. You have your opinion, which is that there isn't sufficient data on either side to make a conclusion, and I have mine, which is that Partha can't truthfully claim that private schools don't "embrace" minorities based on the evidence extant. We're kinda both saying the same thing, aren't we? That Partha can't make the assumption he did based on the data he and I presented?

Am I missing something? Or are you ready to return to the debate?

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:57 pm

Yes - you're missing that all your OTHER conclusions were pulled straight from your butt, were based on flawed data, and drew conclusions that even intact data wouldn't have supported.

Plus you bypassed the whole bit about fully 14% of American private schools being entirely whites-only, which DOES lend credence to Partha's claim that many private schools "aren't embracing minorities."

Interesting you conveniently ignored all those other claims you made ...

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:02 pm

Ok, you've made your statement, anything else to add? Or are you now ready to move on?

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:06 pm

I'm waiting for your acknowledgement or rebuttal.

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:13 pm

My rebuttal is that I don't agree with your statements. Again, you've voiced your opinion on this, and I've voiced mine. We won't move any closer than that.

Ready to move on?

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:16 pm

Now you're pulling a Bill O'Reilley - when shown to be wrong on the facts, you reduce it to "opinion".

No, sorry, I can't engage in a respectful debate when you're being this intellectually dishonest, Embar. I decline to engage you on the new issue.

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