The "nuclear option" re: filibusters

Riggen · Post by **Riggen** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:35 pm

Wow, reading through this thread I had no idea there was such acrimony between members of the guild. I'm really out of touch.

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:37 pm

To the guild's credit, everyone shuts up about it on the rare occasions everyone's online together.

I'm impressed he didn't bite on the second flame, though, just the first. I underestimated him.

Akhbarali · Post by **Akhbarali** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:29 pm

I explained to him a few months ago when he asked in a private e-mail why "I had it out for him" that everything on this Board is nonsense to me. Having participated on far nastier boards and having been death-threated numerous times over the years (even got one here) I refuse to take Internet insults seriously. In truth Relbeek strikes me as a pretty poor judge of character so his dislike for me and belief that I am two-faced isn't a concern. I am sure my belief that he has a massive inferiority complex and is a bit crazy isn't keeping him up at night either as he probably feels the same way about my ability to judge character. I did delete a REALLY vicious reply before hitting enter because I felt he was baiting me and would hate to give him the satisfaction of bringing out my truly nasty side. I can assure you that the thought of it making him think less of me was not a consideration in the decision. I would still say "hi" in /gu to him if he ever logged into the game because I wouldn't want to disappoint his expectation of two-faced behavior on my part.

I am just as confident that he would never bring up this Board in game if he did ever pop in again. There is a time and a place for everything after all.

BTW, if you think this was bad you should have read his flame out with Eidolon a few months ago. That seeemed far nastier (because they know each other in RL and niether wanted the other to get the last word) and they are not only in the same guild but they both came over as part of the Sheilds of Light merger so have been guilded togethor far longer. That discussion seemed truly personal in a way that Relbeek and I could never approach given that we really don't know each other beyond our participation on this Board.

Akhbar

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:34 pm

Oop! I take it back, he bit.

I refuse to take Internet insults seriously.

(Rants to English, anyone?)

So you claim, Akh, but you bit twice - once for two longish paragraphs - and admitted to having written out a bigger flame that you (to your credit) didn't send.

You may think me a poor judge of character, Aky, but I knew exactly where to poke you to get a rise -- your pride.

Riggen · Post by **Riggen** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:41 pm

Hmmm....

Well, in fairness on the Net that poke works for just about anybody.

Akhbarali · Post by **Akhbarali** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:46 pm

Relbeek Einre wrote: You may think me a poor judge of character, Aky, but I knew exactly where to poke you to get a rise -- your pride.

Heh, doesn't take Freud to figure that one out. Least I didn't hit enter you prick. (and it was a three liner so it only took a couple minutes to compose)

Akhbar

Akhbarali · Post by **Akhbarali** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:51 pm

Oh and the two longish paragraphs were for Riggen not you. If he hadn't posted I was done with the discussion. We go back a long way in game, have met in RL and I think very highly of him. I didn't want him to think this stuff spills over into guild (and hope that he starts playing more regularly soon!)

/rude WoW for taking Riggen, Syche, Vonn and Lanlaiely away

Akhbar

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:03 pm

Heh heh. Gotcha again. A two poster!

And you should try WoW, it rocks.

Akhbarali · Post by **Akhbarali** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:24 pm

Relbeek Einre wrote:
And you should try WoW, it rocks.

Bah. I get that speech from Syche and Lanlaiely every time we speak. I am still holding out for Vangaurd or Fallen Earth.

I might have tried WoW if the guild had collapsed but VC is stronger than ever and it has always been 80% about the people 20% about the game for me. Since so many great people stayed put in VC and Lauradreame and the officers are doing such a kick ass job running things EQ1 is still extremely attractive to me. You should come back and raid with us once in a while and see how well things are going. We might actually be staggering into Time in the next couple months if the server merge doesn't F up our slow but steady progression.

Akhbar

Side note - Anyone else getting invalid sessions today? It has hit me twice after not seeing it for several months.

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:33 pm

Really. I suppose I should get SolRo and join you guys in elementals.

vaulos · Post by **vaulos** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:29 pm

Rsak wrote:Ddrak,

The constituation was not passed by the majority of our current citizens which is why the majority/minority comparison is accurate. Your lovely statement of the obvious is quite nice but irrelevant since it is not in contention.

If the issue were put to a vote the minority would have lost, but instead it got its way counter to the beliefs of the majority.

You've really hit on the entire point of having a constitution. That is, we have a "higher law" than majority rule. What you SHOULD be arguing (and yet for some unknown reason are not) is that this isn't a proper instantiation of constitutional law trumping the majority's will. But even if we accept your argument that the crest was a case of the minority getting thier way when the majority should have (by law), it still isn't "tyranny" by any stretch of imagination. It's just an instance of bad judical work. For it to be tyranny, you'd have to have some people being killed, cattle raped, or women stampeeded.

Rsak · Post by **Rsak** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:09 pm

Jecks,

What angst? I made an observation about our system. You proceeded to jump my shit because you have proven you have no comprehension of my point of view or a willingness to have an open mind.

[quote]Are you suggesting that we reratify the Constitution on an anual basis? [/quote

Not at all.

It is just a point of fact that makes the statement by Ddrak that the constitution is supported by the majority an assumption.

Vaulos,

The reason I am not arguing such a position is because I am arguing for anything.

I am not making the statement that our current government is bad or that the crest case was an injustice. It is only an example of the minority have power over the majority.

And sorry but Tyranny does not require death, rape, or stampeeds. Tyranny requires only power which makes the comments appropriate

vaulos · Post by **vaulos** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:18 pm

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tyranny

tyr·an·ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-n)
n. pl. tyr·an·nies

1. A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power.

2. The office, authority, or jurisdiction of an absolute ruler.

3. Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly: “I have sworn... eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” (Thomas Jefferson).

4a. Use of absolute power.
4b. A tyrannical act.

5. Extreme harshness or severity; rigor.

Then please tell us which definition you are using.

Rsak · Post by **Rsak** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:26 pm

#3 and #4a

Do you really need to have the definition of hyperbole pointed out?

vaulos · Post by **vaulos** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:27 pm

So you are suggesting that the minority in this country has absolute power over the majority? Would you mind fleshing that one out a bit?

vaulos · Post by **vaulos** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:29 pm

Just to be clear, it's the word absolute[/i ]in 'absolute power' that we find rather odd in your suggestion.

Riggen · Post by **Riggen** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:11 am

it has always been 80% about the people 20% about the game for me.

Completely agree. The only reason I still even have EQ installed on my system is because of the people in the guild. I reach overload on EQ very quickly now--my day to day gameplay is WoW (I'm starting to get into the PvP elements and I'm actually liking them) of course and is likely to remain so for the forseeable future, but I still try to make the occasional xNR.

And Beek, it seems we're preparing to take down Sol Ro in the near future, getting people flagged with minibosses. So you might want to think about poking your nose back in soon. After tonight I'm down to just Xuzl and SolRo himself for a full set of elemental flags. Once the flags are sorted out and we don't have a ton of gimps Sol Ro goes down.

Better late than never, eh?

Oh, and sorry about breaking from the topic. But what definition of topic?

Rsak · Post by **Rsak** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:23 am

Vaulos,

Since it is clear you need some assistance in reading!

Akhbarali · Post by **Akhbarali** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:02 am

Beek, talk to Leewei since he is the main reason we are moving along so nicely into elementals. He can give you the scoop on when things are happening.

Riggen, PVP has never really appealed to me (especially if it is a replacement for real end game content like early DAoC) but I hear it is well done in WOW. I am 50% of the way to breaking down and getting a copy of WOW if for no other reason to stop in and say hey to friends on some nights. Are you on the same server as Syche, Vonn, Lanlaiely and Rethel?

Back to the thread at hand. Steve Chapman (who I seldom agree with) wrote a solid Op/Ed piece for the Chicago Tribune yesterday (Wash Post picked it up) on the hypocrisy that both parties have shown towards fillibusters over the years. It is a good read that reinforces some of the thoughts expressed here while adding a little historical perspective to the debate. It includes a great quote from Woodrow Wilson blasting the Senate for allowing the minority to thwart absolute majority rule in the legislature. This really isn't a new issue. Definitely worth the read if you are interested in the issue.

Akhbar

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:26 am

And Beek, it seems we're preparing to take down Sol Ro in the near future, getting people flagged with minibosses. So you might want to think about poking your nose back in soon. After tonight I'm down to just Xuzl and SolRo himself for a full set of elemental flags. Once the flags are sorted out and we don't have a ton of gimps Sol Ro goes down.

Thanks for the tip. Xuzl is, ironically, the only SolRo miniboss I have taken down... I may need to be gimped. I ask Leewei to let me know about raids and such but he never does, so I should probably just log in and see for myself.

I'll have to read that oped piece Akhbar mentioned. However, the "nuclear option" is really a leap beyond standard griping.