The Official Abortion Thread

[Taxious]

I'm personally against abortion. I think it's an extremely greedy (my life over yours) practice and a lazy way to deal with irresponsibility. Even though I'll never be in this situation, if I were to get a woman pregnant I wouldn't chose to abort my child - ever.

That being said, I also don't think it's alright to tell other people what they can and can't do with their lives which encompasses the entire backbone of the pro-choice campaign. I choose not to do it for myself, but let other people make their own choices. Of course this all boils down to the question of "when is something human".

My third opinion about abortion is apathetically basic. Who cares? If I were sucked out and thrown in a dumpster at -6 months old, I wouldn't be aware of it. Humans obviously aren't struggling for survival so missing a couple babies here and there really doesn't matter.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I'm personally against abortion. I think it's an extremely greedy (my life over yours) practice and a lazy way to deal with irresponsibility. Even though I'll never be in this situation, if I were to get a woman pregnant I wouldn't chose to abort my child - ever.

That being said, I also don't think it's alright to tell other people what they can and can't do with their lives which encompasses the entire backbone of the pro-choice campaign. I choose not to do it for myself, but let other people make their own choices. Of course this all boils down to the question of "when is something human".

My third opinion about abortion is apathetically basic. Who cares? If I were sucked out and thrown in a dumpster at -6 months old, I wouldn't be aware of it. Humans obviously aren't struggling for survival so missing a couple babies here and there really doesn't matter.

Soooo mnay philosophical inconsistancies here....

[Taxious]

Soooo mnay philosophical inconsistancies here....

Right?

apathy > others' choices > my choices

What are your thoughts on abortion Embie?

[Rykilth]

I'm personally against abortion. I think it's an extremely greedy (my life over yours) practice and a lazy way to deal with irresponsibility. Even though I'll never be in this situation, if I were to get a woman pregnant I wouldn't chose to abort my child - ever.

What about rape victims that are pregnant ? I wouldn't say they were responsible for getting pregnant.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Soooo mnay philosophical inconsistancies here....

Right?

apathy > others' choices > my choices

What are your thoughts on abortion Embie?

Why do you call abortion a "greedy" choice? Lets start with that, and I think you will soon see all the philosophical contradictions in your position.

[Ddrak]

Philosophically there's two separate issues:

i) Is abortion morally justified.
ii) Is it justified for a government to legislate against it.

I feel there are very few cases for a moral justification - basically restricted to the birth being an unacceptable risk for the mother (which may include psychological risk in the cases of rape).

I also feel it is beyond the scope of what should be legislated, prior to the infant being viable outside the womb.

Dd

[Rsak]

Honestly I think viability is immaterial. It is a life as soon as you have a unique genetic code. Even with that view I am pro-choice in the myopic view of litmus politics.

I would describe myself as pro-responsibility and people should use birth control to avoid unwanted pregnancies, yet I also acknowledge the right of the woman to control her own body. Parental rights are so horribly skewed to the female that is is silly, but I recognize the biological reasons for that.

[Ddrak]

I should have said that my reason for using viability as a criteria is at that point the will of the mother is irrelevant - the baby can simply be born rather than aborted. An abortion past the point of viability is completely unnecessary in all cases bar immediate medical harm to the mother.

Dd

[Rsak]

I can understand that reasoning. I just think the moral aspect of it should not matter since it is a statistical impossibility to recreate that genetic code after it is aborted.

[Taxious]

Soooo mnay philosophical inconsistancies here....

Right?

apathy > others' choices > my choices

What are your thoughts on abortion Embie?

Why do you call abortion a "greedy" choice? Lets start with that, and I think you will soon see all the philosophical contradictions in your position.

Sorry, I should have used the word "usually" in there somewhere. Albeit making a circle with edges, I have no problem saying that I think something is wrong for my life but alright for others to do. Lets take the example of my bf's sister who just had an abortion. Basically, she plungered the fetus because she wasn't able to drink alcohol anymore and that was too rough on her.

1) I think that's fucked up, I would never do that if I were her.
2) I realize it's her life and she can do whatever she wants as long as it's not effecting anyone else. This is where the variable of viability comes into play.
3) Did it ultimately matter that she threw the baby in the dumpster? That's a whole other topic, but I personally don't think so.

[Ddrak]

Lets take the example of my bf's sister who just had an abortion. Basically, she plungered the fetus because she wasn't able to drink alcohol anymore and that was too rough on her.

You know, it's shit like this that makes me think being pro-life isn't such a bad idea after all. Either that or pro-smack-upside-the-head-with-a-baseball-bat-to-knock-some-sense-in.

My only objection to legislating against abortion is that it effectively enslaves a woman to be a breeding factory while pregnant and that strikes me as overstepping the bounds of good governance, but for pity's sake, some morality in the general population would make me a lot more comfortable with that reasoning.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

I should have said that my reason for using viability as a criteria is at that point the will of the mother is irrelevant - the baby can simply be born rather than aborted. An abortion past the point of viability is completely unnecessary in all cases bar immediate medical harm to the mother.

Dd

Viability has been changing over time. Now, a fetus stands a decent chance of survival if born 5 months premature. Twenty years ago, survivability was zero. Are you define human life on the basis of the technology to support it?

[Tarfang_Trubasher]

Ddrak/Taxious -- Let's hope that idiot is a part of the extreme minority. After I worked for a health dept. for a couple years, my views changed on abortions. The majority of the women/girls that get them are scared, poorly treated (by parents, 'lovers', society, etc.), and just completely out of sorts. They can't help but to focus on those pressures versus making the actual choice. The women feel/know they've made a mistake, and do what they can to (I need a better way to word this) "appease" or "earn some respect back" from their peers/family.

It's a moral issue, not legal.

The Gov't shouldn't have any say in what we do to our bodies. This includes damage from drinking, smoking, abortion, or whatever. We have the right to destroy ourselves if we wish. This whole pattern of the gov't trying to control our lives is getting out of hand.

There's also something to be said about people who talk down to others that have made a mistake. A teenage girl gets pregnant, and people come down on her like savages. If people just showed even a little sympathy (morality?), and tried to help that girl through the situation, I think we'd be a better place. The extreme cases, are those of rape. I'm not sure it's fair to voice my concern there. As a pro-lifer I know where I stand. However, I've seen women who have been raped, trying to cope with their memory of such a horrific event. I've also seen rapists stand trial, and the babies be born. Sometimes the mother keeps the child as her own, rising above the memory that created the beautiful life. Others may choose to put that life in the hands of others who don't see it as "a rape baby." As mothers, they protect the life of their children. I've also seen the other way. The torment is too strong. At that point, I'm just happy to know they don't have to go so some back-alley clinic to have the procedure done. That is not to offer contradiction to my beliefs. I'd rather the woman know it's possible to get beyond that memory, then try to leave it in an operating room.

"What It's Like" - Everlast

And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose
Then you really might know what it's like, to have to lose.

-TF

[Select]

I don't know if I could ever go through with an abortion, but I take as many precautions as I can short of abstinence to avoid having to make that decision. I still remain pro-choice.

An argument is that she can just have the child and put it up for adoption if she can't care for it. Women have problems before the baby is born. Pregnancy changes a woman's body. (For example: my mom's bladder became weaker because of it) Pregnancy also interferes with work. Having the baby is also expensive as fuck.

But my primary argument out of those is that because pregnancy changes a woman's body, she should not have to go through with it if she chooses not to. That's forcing her to have her body altered against her will.

The birth itself is the same way in that it can change her body: If she has the kid via natural birth, that vagina is likely to tear or stretch. If she has a c-section, there's scarring and she's being forced to go through with a medical procedure.

I personally despise anyone who has a abortion for reasons of "well I couldn't drink anymore" and so on; they ruin it for the rest of us. However, I agree with Tarfang -that the majority getting them done aren't like that.

Because this is a philosophy forum and not the political forum, shouldn't we keep our arguments to the moral side of the issue only?

[Taxious]

The Gov't shouldn't have any say in what we do to our bodies. This includes damage from drinking, smoking, abortion, or whatever. We have the right to destroy ourselves if we wish. This whole pattern of the gov't trying to control our lives is getting out of hand.

I'm glad our government tries to control drugs like heroin and meth and couldn't imagine what America would be like with every current illegal substance legalized.

The majority of the women/girls that get them are scared, poorly treated (by parents, 'lovers', society, etc.), and just completely out of sorts. They can't help but to focus on those pressures versus making the actual choice. The women feel/know they've made a mistake, and do what they can to (I need a better way to word this) "appease" or "earn some respect back" from their peers/family.

So their reputation, their wits, their emotions, and their "mistakes" are more important than the baby? That's pretty greedy IMO, but it's their life.

[Tarfang_Trubasher]

Tax, I think you missed my point. I was stressing the fact people change when put under massive pressure and fear. It wasn't a question of greed, though in the example you provided that was a greed situation.

With my quoted statement, I was trying to say if we, as a society, weren't so hard on people, it might make the situation more different and possibly the choice easier to make.

As to the first quote, I have to wonder if drugs were legal. It's likely you're right, and I shouldn't have made such a broad statement. But, I still wonder if we didn't take off the "forbidden fruit" nature of many of the controlled substances if the usage would either go down, people would be less interested, or would just die of their own OD's. Too tough to know without my nifty crystal ball

[Taxious]

But my primary argument out of those is that because pregnancy changes a woman's body, she should not have to go through with it if she chooses not to. That's forcing her to have her body altered against her will.

Disregarding rape and mother Mary, pregnancy is a consequence of a choice to have sex. You are essentially saying that people should not have to deal with consequences of their actions - which doesn't make much sense to me.

Tax, I think you missed my point. I was stressing the fact people change when put under massive pressure and fear. It wasn't a question of greed, though in the example you provided that was a greed situation.

So destroying a kid just to get the pressure off your back isn't greedy? Thanks for clearing that up...

Keep in mind I'd never say this stuff to the bf's sister, or to anyone that was debating cleaning out their womb, but this is honestly how I feel.

[Select]

No, I don't think they should have to. We have the technology to make it easier and I have more of a moral issue of forcing a mother to undergo changes to her body over protecting a clump of cells.

[Tarfang_Trubasher]

Yes, it's greedy in context. However, I'm not questioning the greed factor. I'm questioning the methods in which these women are forced to make their decisions. If they heard "we love and support any decision you make, and here are the options" instead of "you're a filthy whore and need to abandon this demonseed" that more women just might take the more positive path.

[Kulaf]

I should have said that my reason for using viability as a criteria is at that point the will of the mother is irrelevant - the baby can simply be born rather than aborted. An abortion past the point of viability is completely unnecessary in all cases bar immediate medical harm to the mother.

Dd

Viability has been changing over time. Now, a fetus stands a decent chance of survival if born 5 months premature. Twenty years ago, survivability was zero. Are you define human life on the basis of the technology to support it?

I think most social conservative would say yes in the light of their stance with Terri Shiavo.