This is America

Klast Brell · Post by **Klast Brell** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:05 pm

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state ... -apnewyork

Nearly one in two Americans believe the U.S. government should restrict civil liberties for Muslim-Americans, according to a nationwide Cornell University poll on terrorism fears.

The survey also found respondents who identified themselves as highly religious supported restrictions on Muslim-Americans more strongly than those less religious.

It just makes me sad to read things like this. To know that day by day something ugly is becoming mainstream.

Aquinas · Post by **Aquinas** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:21 pm

Related polls just after 9/11.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/41471_page4.shtml

SicTimMitchell · Post by **SicTimMitchell** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:28 pm

I consider the right to bear arms a civil liberty.

How many liberals polled would be in favor of curtailing it?

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:06 pm

Holy missing the point, Batman.

SicTimMitchell · Post by **SicTimMitchell** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:25 pm

Maybe you missed my point.

It's in how you define "civil liberties."

For example, we're all already required to register our location with the Federal government. At least, if we obey the tax laws.

wende darling · Post by **wende darling** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:48 pm

My location isn't registered with the federal government. I haven't had a job or filed taxes in at least 2.5 years. Why should anyone else in my situation have to file their address simply because of their religion?

Welcome to America...if you're a Christian Straight Rich White Male. Some things will unfortunately never change.

Torakus · Post by **Torakus** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:01 pm

Can anyone find a link to the poll itself? I would like to see where geographically this poll was conducted. I really have a tough time believing the results of this poll were not skewed by the demographic polled.

I could poll 750 people nationwide and guarantee you about 80-90% of the folks I polled would favor restrictions on muslims civil liberties and turn around and poll 750 more and be hard pressed to find 1% favoring them.

Islamaphobia perhaps exists, though I doubt in the numbers Cornell University and the people who did the poll themselves want to believe.

Anyway, someone cough up a link to it. Would be an interesting exercise for us ranters to discuss the specifics. Klast can be on the
'Oh god I hate America because I grew up under an oppressive regime and don't want to see it happen here" side and I will play the "Ugly American" side.

Torakus

Embar Angylwrath · Post by **Embar Angylwrath** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:05 pm

Wende,

If you've taken a part in any federal program, you're registered with the government in some form.
ADFC
Welfare
Any social security benefits
Being, or living with, a felon with a federal rap.

Also, the following activites will get you on any number of databases available to the Feds.
You hold a bank account in a Federally licensed bank,
You have driver's license,
You've had children using benefits from any public or private health care program,
You've ever done anyhting that required a credit check (rent an apartment, apply for a loan, get a credit card, etc)

Today, unless you totally live off the grid (pay cash for everything, don't have a residence, sleep in alleys, etc) any good skiptrace guy can find out where you live, what you drive, what your bank account balance is, what your credit score is, what your mortgage or rent is, if you're a college grad, if you're a felon, how many kids you have and what their names and ages are... oh.. in about 30 minutes. Give the guy a day, and he can tell me what you purchased on your credit cards in the last 24 hours, what your utility usage is, who you called in the last month, where you travelled and where you like to shop the most.

You (and the rest of us) are much more visible than we'd like to admit.

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:32 pm

No, Bang... I'm sorry, I -strongly- disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective.

Half of Americans according to this poll favor some kind of reduction in equal protection under the law based on religion. That sucks, no matter how you slice it.

SicTimMitchell · Post by **SicTimMitchell** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:30 pm

Relbeek, you've done polling, I've done polling. If you can't see the bias inherent in the poll, you're nuts.

People were willing to vote for GEORGE W. FUCKING BUSH to prevent terrorism.

SicTimMitchell · Post by **SicTimMitchell** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:35 pm

BTW, here's the tpioff:

"The more attention paid to television news, the more you fear terrorism, and you are more likely to favor restrictions on civil liberties," said Erik Nisbet, a senior research associate with Cornell's Survey Research Institute who helped design the survey.

Note that the questions aren't given, only answers.

Informal poll:

How many people here would favor putting Tim Mitchell of Minneapolis, MN to death if it would prevent future terrorist attacks on American soil?

SicTimMitchell · Post by **SicTimMitchell** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:42 pm

One final note:

In searching for the actual questions, all I could get was Cornell's press release -- which is what every other news story is pretty much quoting verbatim.

Still got that LexisNexis access, Partha?

Aquinas · Post by **Aquinas** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:52 pm

Half of Americans according to this poll favor some kind of reduction in equal protection under the law based on religion.

Correlation does not equal causation.

I've got Lexis access what do you want me to look for?

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:55 pm

Aquinas? Explain that? The correlation != causation line seems awfully nonsequitur.

Aquinas · Post by **Aquinas** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:17 pm

You suggested that people would elect a "reduction" of civil liberties "based on religion." The survey merely reported that those who consider their self "highly religious" believe such a reduction should be legal. Just because there is a correlation between a response and someone's religious beliefs, it is not necessarily true (or even likely in my mind) that one causes the other.

Example: the link I posted at the beginning of the thread. African Americans, more than any other race, are more likely to favor racial profiling for Arabs. It is not therefore true that, African Americans base their views about racial profiling for Arabs on the color of their skin.

Correlation does not equal causation.

BTW here’s the actual study if no one has come across it yet.

http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1a.pdf

Aquinas · Post by **Aquinas** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:24 pm

After looking at that link a little closer, I think you will find what you are looking for Tim.
The yellow boxes seem to be the statements given, followed by the responses of strongly agree, agree, disagree, etc..

Post by **Relbeek Einre** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:27 pm

Aquinas - I was referring to the religion of the restricted. Muslim.

SicTim: I see potential for bias in the polling - it really depends on the questions.

Aquinas · Post by **Aquinas** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:32 pm

Well that takes care of that!

Narith · Post by **Narith** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:29 am

In the 40s people were put into prison camps (In America) because they were of a certain race (Japenese). In the 20s I believe it was people were steralized because they did not meet the requirements of what the government believed to be be "genitically fit". Germany a few years later used the same reasoning and research done by America to start the holocaust (yes, America was indirectly the cause of the holocaust). These are things that you will never be taught in school, these are things that we still keep records for so you are able to look them up for yourself though you are not taught in school.

These are things that cause the saying "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it". Welcome to the circle we call history.

The majority of Americans are biggots, if you do not worship the right god you may as well not come to America. The last election proved how much hatred there is in this country, our own president is a self proclaimed biggot. Those that oppose them and fight this hatred and try to establish the freedoms our country was founded on get labled as liberal whackos or anti-government whackos which seems to have turned from anti-government to anti-American though I falied to catch the point when America became it's government instead of the nation and concept of freedom that it was founded upon... But I digress.

Do not be supprised if prison camps are established in the next 4 years for anyone who claims to be a musilm or has an arabic genitic history. As history has shown it usually does not stop at 1 race or religion so agnostics and athiests may also end up being placed in the camps as well. Think I am looking too deep into this? Look at our history and what the majority of America believes. We have done it before and conditions are ripe to do it again.

Oh and PS. not all liberals are out to take your guns away from you, some of them support the NRA and right to bear arms which was supposed to protect us from the type of government we have now, though didn't seem to work very well... None the less do not lump the ones who want to take your guns with the rest of them.