I finally saw F9/11...

[Jarochai Alabaster]

And I'm wondering how much of it is accurate, versus how much is Moore taking his usual "creative liberty" to spice up the film.
It was obviously very one-sided. I expected nothing less, of course. But, for example...
I was always under the impression that Bush was notified of the first plane collision when he was already in the classroom that morning. Moore said that Bush was notified of the first crash on the way to the school, and that it was the second plane he was told about during the class. Is this accurate, or is this Moore blatantly lying again?
It's hard to take Moore seriously, but I know that there's some truth behind what he says often enough. The only problem is, his lies cast everything he says into doubt, at which point the only people who continue to support him obviously have blinders on (Such as the girl I borrowed the movie from - I'd not only pointed out but read the transcript of Charlton Heston's speech to her...the one that was butchered in BfC. She continued to parrot pro-Moore-anti-NRA rhetoric, claiming that even if Moore was lying, he brings up good points and is to be respected. Surprisingly enough to me, Gwil said about the same thing).
Eh. I know my knowledge of politics and the actions of our elected officials is less than ideal, but still seems to be above average considering the people I talk polotics with. Not just my friends, but my parents and their friends, as well as many strangers that get brought into conversations at our table at Denny's or the Flying J.
I also know there's a lot of intelligent people here, who could point out the truth and lies in Moore's film just from their basic knowledge of our politics, the Bush family, and the history of the Middle East.
Basically I'm looking for some help better understanding what is accurate.

[Burz]

And I'm wondering how much of it is accurate, versus how much is Moore taking his usual "creative liberty" to spice up the film.

Should watch that then Farenhype 9/11 back to back. It's fun looking at the gross inaccuracies.

[jookkor]

The only part of that movie that meant anything to me was when bush froze up upon hearing the news of the attacks. he sat there like an automaton until he was told to get up and leave, that pretty much sums up his actual role for me. paramedics, policemen, firemen, soldiers, hell anybody who drives any vehicle at all does not get nine minutes in a crisis.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Yeah, I'm planning to watch Farenhype too, whenever I get around to it. I seriously doubt anyone I know owns it though, and I'm not about to go buy it, just as I wasn't about to go buy Fahrenheit 9/11.
Maybe I'll finally get off my ass and go get a rental card from Blockbuster or something.

[Partha]

Remember, when the first crash happened, no one was really speculating terrorism. I know damn well I wasn't when I saw the news that day. The second plane was when people finally started saying, 'OH SHIT', and with good reason. Think of the number of planes overhead a major city every day.

[Relbeek Einre]

My own analysis of the movie, Jarochai, was that on basic points of fact Moore was accurate, but he tended to leap from those to conclusions that were unsupported by the facts.

If memory serves, he was accurate about the chain of events during 9/11 regarding the President's activities, but he then threw in conclusions about WHY Bush stayed there reading that book and presented them as fact.

You get the idea.

[jookkor]

yeah he needs to drop the overt conjecture and go back to the roger&me format where he actually had potential to educate viewers.

[Atira]

Gosh , funny that alot of the US didnt think "terrorism" when the first plane hit. Canada sure did. All american inbound flights were being diverted , mostly to canadian airports. That shook us up pretty good. Our airforce was on red alert, and flights were being escorted in.

Our Large city downtown cores, (towers mostly) were already on standby and some had already recieved word from their New York Offices to shut down and go home.

By the time the second tower in the US was hit, Toronto was evactuating, a good call in my opinion as flights were coming into our airports. By the time the first tower started to fall, our city core was almost empty with people in their cars, out on ground level, or on the trains out of the city.

=( saddest thing i heard that day was someone tell me that their office recieved a fax from people trapped on one of the floors in the first tower, that they couldnt get out =( . Only way they could communicate was fax or email.

The whole event was broadcast here a few moments after the first plane struck. So many of us saw the live coverage ... and we wept openly. For a long time.

Why and how it happened? Thats for americans to find out. Its up to you to disifer through all the evidence, and weigh it. Make your decisions as a nation, with the truth in your hands. Maybe Moore has some of it , or only a piece of it. Demand truthful answers to your questions. Just dont sacrifice your integrity.

side note:
Canada sent Firefighters, paramedics, equipment, emergency teams, Doctors and nurses, pathologists...by air, chopper and bus load to NY. And then there were the hundreds that took time off of work, to drive down and volunteer. We sent blood and medical supplies, anything New York needed. There are less than 40 million of us kanucks up here. Our nations budget measures in the billions, not trillions. Im proud we help in the world the way we do, with peace in mind, first and foremost.

Atira

[Ddrak]

Gosh , funny that alot of the US didnt think "terrorism" when the first plane hit. Canada sure did. All american inbound flights were being diverted , mostly to canadian airports. That shook us up pretty good. Our airforce was on red alert, and flights were being escorted in.

Our Large city downtown cores, (towers mostly) were already on standby and some had already recieved word from their New York Offices to shut down and go home.

By the time the second tower in the US was hit, Toronto was evactuating, a good call in my opinion as flights were coming into our airports

Nope. Your memory is faulty. There was only 17 minutes between the two planes hitting (8:46 and 9:03 ET). Flights were not being redirected by the FAA until 9:08 ET when they finally figured out what was going on. The Canadian Air Force wasn't notified until around 9:00 ET. Downtown buildings and the like were definitely not being evacuated or even put on alert until the second plane hit.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/time ... 1_timeline

Dd

[Angelfeeties]

Actually Dd, im gunna have to back my mother up on this one. I was sitting in Calculas class when the teacher ran out of the room and came storming back in and said a plane had crashed into one of the Trade Towers a few minutes ago. Now according to you there was 17 minutes in between those plane crashes, and i can tell ya only minutes into the first crash things were happening in my school.

If shits happening in a highschool minutes after a crash, you can dam well bet that buildings are starting to be evacced right at the same time in big cities like Toronto, you cant just go with what you know the government is doing. My intire school could have been evac'd before the second plane hit, i have no doubt in my mind evac's were starting in other places as well, at the same time. Expecially when the trade towers have corispondants (sp) in Toronto, bout 30min away from me.

As well, my aunt works in one of the buildings who have ties to the trade towers in NY, and they were sent home right when the first plane hit, not shittin ya.

We may have not been screaming "terrorism", but we sure were panicing to all hell and back. Cant always go with statistics.

[Atira]

nope !

I was already on the phone to someone in the core of the city 2 times watching the live coverage after the first tower was hit. They were out of the towers here before the first tower fell. And they were on the train half way home when it came down. Our hiways were packed already. I saw the first film of people jumping out of the first tower, while the CNN broadcaster said it was debrie ... while crying and talking at the same time, to people on cell phones as they were leaving the city. The flights were already circling Pierson.

Atira

[Ddrak]

Angel,

It's not "according to me" that they were 17 minutes apart. It's a plain and simple fact. Did you even bother to go look at the link I posted which goes down to the second when which agencies were notified, when evactuations started and where all the responses were coming from? Thought not.

Your memory is faulty. The facts as recorded by countless independant sources show it.


Atira,

Nice to see you back down from your original statement. Also nice to see you mix the facts up completely. The second tower hit (the south one) was the one that fell first, and it didn't fall until 9:59 ET. Flights and buildings were definitely being evacuated by that stage and highways were packed. The first tower hit (north) fell at 10:28 ET.

I'm not making this stuff up. It's very well recorded fact exactly when and where everything happened on 9/11, and there was literally no major response until after the second plane hit despite your "memory" of events.

Dd

[Angelfeeties]

I took your statement as true, i wasn't slandering it in any way, i believe 100% it is true, all that im saying is i was here when it happened and i know what went on in the area i live in, and i can tell you from first person perspective and family knowledge, that buildings, schools and other places were being evac'd after the first tower was hit.

I honestly don't care what a statistics website has to say with countless sources, i have a source who was in one of the buildings in Toronto as the planes hit, i take her word over theirs, end of story from my side.

Angel

[Angelfeeties]

Hate to double post, but i actually decided to waste 25min of my time and look threw your link. Sorry to say, i read up until 9:15am on the listings, and i didn't find one Canadian listing of what was happening here. So i don't know where your getting your information or alligations Dd.

[Atira]

I searched the site too , couldnt find any referrence to Canadian/American communications in it at all.
But thats beside the point. What the american government does, does not dictate what canadians do. We have an excellent telecommunications system up here. Contrary to US propoganda, we use better equipment than tin cans and string lol.

A tower was hit by a plane. Our phones ring. People are frightened for their loved ones and terrified about what is reported. NY offices tell their other branch offices in Toronto Ontario and London England (and other trading floors) what is happening. Toronto moves fast. like it or not Dd , no goverment agency had to tell anyone to leave. They did it on their own and some on the insistance of their head offices. Some people left within minutes of the first hit on the tower, as soon as it was braodcast. Second plane hits a tower, im on the phone, people are already heading for the train stations or their cars, or to ground level. No government agency told them to. The city officails didnt tell them to.
Just because the american hadnt told us to yet, doesnt mean we werent already on the move. Canada and its people are capable of independant thought and action, and dont require the US' permission to protect its citizens. Perhaps its because our culture is different. Now if we could just get our act together over the Beef !! LOL *sigh*


And now back on topic .... Moore is controvercial yes, ...but wouldnt he already be sued in the US if he made up the information ? Apparently he is making a film about health care next, im anxious to see it . Complacency is a ripe breeding ground for deception, and any government needs critisism to keep it in check. Thats why democracies have freedom of speech.

Atira

[Ddrak]

You're dissembling Atira. Basically, changing your story as facts are shown. No, I didn't dig up the details on US/Canadian communications because I didn't think you'd bother dissembling so much. Let's go back to your original post and what you claim happened in the 17 minutes between the two planed hitting:

"All american inbound flights were being diverted , mostly to canadian airports." - point of record shows that the FAA made no such diversions until at or after the second plane hit.

"Our airforce was on red alert, and flights were being escorted in." - Canadian Air Force wasn't scrambled until around 9:28. Also a point of record from NORAD's logs.

"Our Large city downtown cores, (towers mostly) were already on standby and some had already recieved word from their New York Offices to shut down and go home." - No New York civiian departments were seriously considering a terrorist strike until the second plane hit. Most were thinking it was a terrible accident.

"By the time the second tower in the US was hit, Toronto was evactuating, a good call in my opinion as flights were coming into our airports." - Flights were not coming into your airports in those 17 minutes. Nothing had been diverted yet and it takes more than 17 minutes for unscheduled flights to enter pattern and land anyway.

Essentially you had the timeline screwed up in your mind. The two towers were hit very closely together in time. So close that there was really no time for any coordinated reaction. It wasn't even known at the time the second plane hit that there were other planes hijacked.

What I do notice is that you have a huge chip on your shoulder about Canadians and Americans however. Not once have I said anything about Canadian technology or politics and yet you are vigorously defending yourself against some imagined slight. Sorry, but I couldn't give a toss about your insecurities on the matter - I'm just stating the simple fact that you have overstated the speed of the Canadian response in a flurry of misguided zealotry.

Your latest version of the story is much softer however:

"A tower was hit by a plane. Our phones ring. People are frightened for their loved ones and terrified about what is reported." - they were frightened by what was being reported everywhere as a horrific accident, what was being reported as a *Cessna* flying into the building? Remember - no reports of it being a deliberate act were seriously surfacing until the second plane struck, in fact the details of exactly WHAT struck were still sketchy at the time. If you are suggesting they are "terrified by a tragic accident in NY" then you're essentially saying that Canadians are a bunch of flighty paranoid freaks. I disagree with that assessment.

"NY offices tell their other branch offices in Toronto Ontario and London England (and other trading floors) what is happening." - again, tell them what? Even the people in NY didn't know what the hell was going on until the pieces starting coming together at around 9:30 ET.

"Some people left within minutes of the first hit on the tower, as soon as it was braodcast." - again, as soon as *what* was broadcast? CNN and NBC weren't reporting it as a terrorist strike, or even anything more than an accident until after the second plane hit. You see - your story is falling down here because as it's well known in legal cases, people invent a lot of their memory to fill in the blanks where they simply aren't sure.

Look - I'm not telling you that you don't have the right to believe whatever you like about the events of 9/11. You can fuel whatever inferiority complex you may be harboring with reaction speed times. However, when you start posting bullshit about who knew what and when they knew it then I'm going to call you on it. Fact is, no one outside of Al Qaeda - not the Americans, not the Canadians, not the Bengalis either knew that an "attack" was happening until the second plane hit, and didn't know for sure until about 30 minutes after. Believe whatever fantasies you want, but those are the facts.

Dd

[Atira]

Just because the "News" hasnt told us what to think, doesnt mean individuals arent able think for themselves.

Its only logical to think that an aircraft hiting the one of the top three financial stuctures in the world, could more than possibly be intentional. Like it or not Dd , its what happened. We cleared out, and fast, well before the 'news' or US gov officials released somewhat firm statements as to what was happening.

The first plane hit around 8:45. The white collar crowd in the finacial district here , start as early as 6am. First hand reports of the crash came into Toronto well before the second plane hit some 15+ min later. People were already on the move, and for those that hadnt already left, head offices told them to clear out then. Our core was empty before the first building (what ever twoer no# it was) fell to the ground. I have first hand knowledge about peoples movements out of the city that morning, from 8:50ish to 10:45 am. So do tens of thousands of other Torontonians.

Bush was still in the school classroom when some canadian cities cores were evactuating.

US senator Kennedy and Lora Bush were addressing the nation at 9:35, and our buildings were already empty, and people going home, BEFORE the first crash.

As for the canadain airforce... on red alert ... yes , it was, and i will take your word on it that it was scrambled and officially recorded at 9:28am. That doesnt mean that they werent already well aware of what was happening, and already moving when the US closed its airports 15 min earlier.

Moving out that fast was a good call by regular citizens, and then by officials later on in that hour. Think about it. If, flights deverted to Toronto, (they went to other ontario aiports , as well as central, east and west coast canadian airports), that were inbound to the US, had a huge potential of also carrying hijackers. It posed an enormous risk to us also. But they were allowed to land anyways. Doing so helped possibly save american lives, but also, the lives of the people on board planes that were running out of fuel. They were escorted, and unloaded efficiantly by our authorities ... and many given places to stay overnight in our homes.

Flighty paranoid freaks ? Hardly. Smart swift and big hearted is more like it.

Atira

[Rsak]

Ah a nice bigoted response!

[jookkor]

ddrak can magically read millions of minds at once, and knows what every military complex on earth is and is not capable of.
Good evening Mr Bond.


Btw I saw the second plane crash on tv, when the story on the first one broke shortly after it happened, I not only thought to myself that it was a terrorist attack, I wondered if more were coming and when/where. But obviously my thoughts on the matter were freakishly unusual.

[Syeni Soulslasher MK6]

Rah rah rah I know best!!!! ra rah rah


LOL good god,, DD had the most coherent post and granted its imposable to say that script is exactly what happened its far more accurate then anyone can puke out on there own accounts..

I know when I heard about the 1st plane I thought it was just some really shitty piloting on someone’s part by the 2nd I was wtf, and when news broke of the pentagon there was no doubt we were under attack... Luckily nothing else was slammed into other then the country in PA. (and the PA incident is exactly why nothing like this will happen again in the US, at least until its forgotten about, but probly wont use planes anymore then also). Atleast I hope.