Iraq, from the Aussie news' perspective

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Ddrak
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Iraq, from the Aussie news' perspective

Post by Ddrak »

Background info: SMH is owned by Fairfax Group who are usually strong supporters of the right wing agenda in Australia, even to the point of holding significant office inside the Liberal Party itself.

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Two years after the invasion of Iraq the rate of US soldiers being killed is averaging 18 a week, almost double the rate in the first year after the war.

The country is far more dangerous than 12 months ago, say security experts, and reconstruction has slowed to a crawl.

Between 40,000 and 50,000 US military personnel are in Iraq despite serious medical conditions that should have ruled them out of combat, according to the National Gulf War Resource Centre. The GI Rights Hotline, which counsels troops, says it fielded 32,000 calls last year from soldiers seeking an exit from the military, or suffering from post-combat stress.

Others vote with their feet. Last year the Pentagon admitted that 5500 of its forces had gone AWL, although it claims many returned to their units after resolving personal crises.

At the same time that Kevin Benderman's unit was called up for a second tour in Iraq with the US Third Infantry Division, two soldiers tried to kill themselves and another had a relative shoot him in the leg. Seventeen went AWL or ran off to Canada, and Sergeant Benderman, whose family has sent a son to every war since the American revolution, defied his genes and nine years of military training and followed his conscience.

As the division packed its gear to leave Fort Stewart, Georgia, Sergeant Benderman applied for a discharge as a conscientious objector - an act seen as a betrayal by many in his unit.

Although they may not be part of any organised anti-war movement, the conscientious objectors, runaways and other irregular protesters suggest that, two years on, the Iraq mission is taking a heavy toll.

Just 93 Australian civilians are now in Iraq, a third of the number that were there a year ago, as corporations, aid agencies and government departments decide the personal risk is too great.

A total of 284 Australian troops are in Baghdad with another 400 RAAF at air bases in the region and 22 sailors on board HMAS Darwin in the Persian Gulf. Another 450 troops will start arriving around Anzac Day to protect Japanese troops doing reconstruction work in southern Iraq.

Prime Minister John Howard last week refused to rule out sending even more troops after Italy said it would start pulling out.

Despite the hopeful sign of so many Iraqis turning out to vote, most of those with hands-on experience of what is going on there despair for the future.

"I was there for the elections and a little afterwards and it is worse now than it has ever been," said former SAS soldier and security operator Paul Jordan of AKE Australia. "Every time I go there it is more restricted than before," said Mr Jordan, who does security protection for media and business people visiting Iraq.

"The average Iraqi is worse off now than before the war. Iraqis are as much a target for kidnappings and crime as foreigners."

Dr Michael Humphrey of the University of NSW said not many Iraqis would feel they benefited from the war. He said Shiites could seek revenge for decades of repression and that would mean years of fighting.
That seems to paint the picture that the US military is under pretty serious strain from the whole Iraq mess - far more than I suspected. Comments?

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Post by Taxious »

Give Ward Churchill an award?
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Post by Rsak »

The negativity aside I cannot lend much credibility to the implication that the Sergaent is following his conscience after backing out on being a volunteer.
End the hypocrisy!

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Post by Aabe »

Interesting facts, but kind of a thrown together bunch of them, smelling more like "I will make a case for something" than following a single line of research. I would be interested to know if we stepped on any Austrailian toes going into Iraq, my boss went there late last year and at least the people he talked to, they pretty much were all down on Iraq. I am not surprised if any thing printed in Australia would be less than kind to US in Iraq.

I can usually find lots of stuff to back either side if I look hard enough.

We lost a bunch of troops in a few offensives last year in Iraq, so the numbers aren't a huge surprise.

It seems an article in my local newspaper was citing that we are loosing twice as many troops so far this year in Humvee roll overs than all of the year before. They speed through areas that are suspect for snipers and don't make the turns. Possible the new heavier armor everyone wanted to put on them is making them a bit more top heavy, not for sure. (but if so, our imaginary friend "Unintended consequences" has arrived) But there is an investigaion on Humvee roll overs in Iraq currently. Lots of fun facts out there just waiting to be spun into something interesting..
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Re: Iraq, from the Aussie news' perspective

Post by Aabe »

Although they may not be part of any organised anti-war movement, the conscientious objectors, runaways and other irregular protesters suggest that, two years on, the Iraq mission is taking a heavy toll..
Anyone name a war that lasted more than two years that didn't exact a heavy toll? Didn't have suicides? Didn't have AWOLs?
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Post by Aabe »

Saayy.. can't AWOL be like not coming back on Monday like you were scheduled but making it back on Tuesday because of domestic spat?
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Post by Rsak »

If the soldier is absent with authorized leave then he or she is technically AWOL. As mentioned in the article some soldiers will go AWOL deal with a personal crisis and then return.

And I really have to question the line of logic that things are horrible just because the average death toll has risen from a year ago. What are they in regards to previous wars?

While human life is precious, it should be kept in perspective.
End the hypocrisy!

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Post by Torakus »

22 Sailors on HMAS Darwin?
Must be a typo. Darwin FFG-04 has a complement of over 200, probably 220 rather than the 22 stated in the article. I served on FFG-46 from 90-94 and FFG-38 from 97 to 2002 and am now serving on FFG-38 again until 2008. These ships are small but you can't run them with 22 people.

Just thought I would correct that news sources information.

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Post by JamiesanTGrauerwolf »

The death toll has risen. Sounds horrible to me.
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Post by Aabe »

This article is the product of one lazy butt.

Ddrak with access to the internet and and a word processor could make a way better case that the war was going badly in Iraq than this article does.

They throw out the usual absolute numbers, with no comparisons to past conflicts or even to 100,000 troops in peace time (AWOL rate for example), imply a few things, state a few things without making a good case to back them and call it news.

I have seen way better arguements with better facts here on this board than this publishing agency seems able to create.
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Post by Aabe »

JamiesanTGrauerwolf wrote:The death toll has risen. Sounds horrible to me.
Sure it sounds horrible, but if you are a thinking person, it would be nice to know what it means.
Between 40,000 and 50,000 US military personnel are in Iraq despite serious medical conditions that should have ruled them out of combat, according to the National Gulf War Resource Centre..
Does this mean the military is forcing troops into combat that are injured and begging for care? Or does this mean troops are getting wounded and begging to be let out into the field (which I have heard several cases of). I can say lots of things that sound horrible, but unless I actually do some work and show you what it really means, you are a fool to take it at face value.
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Post by Torakus »

If the soldier is absent with authorized leave then he or she is technically AWOL.
Erm, no. AWOL stands for Absent Without Leave. If they are absent with authorized leave then they are simply on leave. AWOL means you are gone without permission, whether you are taking care of personal family crises or not, it is not authorized and you will face non-judicial punishment upon return.

If the unauthorized absence (UA) as the Navy calls it lasts for more than 30 days or if the member indicates verbally or in writing an intention to remain absent or makes that intent clear by other means such as leaving his identification card at the unit before leaving, they are classified as Deserters, and are punished accordingly, usually via court martial.

Also don't get the sniffles over these guys who are AWOL to take care of family crises. Every military branch and every military station has facilities, programs and organizations to support you while you are not at home and help take care of these crises. And if the crises is so grand as to require your personal attention there is mergency leave.

It pains me to even talk about concientious objectors. On the one hand I believe in everyones right to object to warfare. But it is hard to fathom why someone would join the United States Military if they so strongly objected to participating in military activities. I have to question the veracity of thier Objector Status claims. But I am ok with them, if they are ok with leaving the military with no benefits for having broken the contract they signed. And screw anyone who thinks its ok that they just joined to get money for college and now want out because they might actually have to do the job they signed up to do. That is the most chickenshit excuse I have heard yet.

To address what Dd said though, yes the U.S. ground forces are under a great deal of strain. The dramatic drawn downs from the Bush I and Clinton administrations and continuation of force trimming by Bush II have left us with a military that cannot sustain this type of operation indefinitely. We can fight wars on mulitple fronts, but cannot sustain this long drawn out security force / counter insurgency force operation for much longer. These men and women doing one year tours are not comparable to the draftees serving 1 year in Vietnam. When these young men and women rotate out of Iraq, there is no guarantee that they will not be assigned to another unit preparing to roll in, nor do they have the luxury of looking forward to an immediate discharge after rolling home like John Kerry and so many other volunteer in the 60s and 70s sought and recieved. These kids are in it for 4 or 6 years and many were near or at hump year (10 year mark) when this all started and want to stick it out for 20 for the pension.

But those among them who value what they do for a living, even if they question the immediate benefit of this war, will keep it together and continue doing more with less, and eventually our government will realize that it is not sustainable and fix it, if that is possible.

Tora
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Post by Rsak »

Sorry bout that Torakus, meant to say without rather then with. Got distracted by the acronym for some reason.
End the hypocrisy!

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Post by Ddrak »

The only two things I really got from that article (I quoted it in full because some people have objections to free reg) is the casualty rate increasing and the number of people that are sick and are still in combat position.

Now, assuming those facts are correct and I don't currently have a reason to doubt them then the first indicates that no real progress is being made against the insurgency (spare me the "darkest just before dawn" rhetoric), or that the roots of the insurgency are deeper than just a dying pro-Saddam movement; and the second indicates that the military cannot stay embroiled in Iraq at the level it currently is for much longer without some sort of collapse.

Together it's a problem - you have a military that needs to stay longer but can't. I don't really have any answers because I don't really like where the ones I can think of are going to lead.

On the article itself - yeah, Aabe, it's sloppy journalism. I just hadn't seen some of those points before - especially the sick combatants one. Maybe I'm just naive and people are two steps ahead of me - which is why I didn't really add much commentary.

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Post by Partha »

The key here is not the number of deaths. The key here is how many Americans have been put out of action. As has been noted elsewhere, with the advances in body armor and medicine, a lot of soldiers who would have died are coming back seriously wounded.

Conservative estimates (The military will give no figures) estimate 10k wounded.
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Post by Torakus »

The sad truth is, there are only two ways for this Iraq situation to go. The first is a complete and unconditional withdrawl of U.S. and coalition forces. I really don't see this happening due to the tremendous international backlash. The other is a gradual reduction in U.S. forces, with a proportional increase in U.S. casualties. Of course that is going to administration dependent and I think will be the crux of the next couple of U.S. presidential elections. This silliness will continue until some future administration decided we have lost enough lives to meet some arbitrary international justification to pull out with little backlash standard.

The U.S. military will not collapse. The soldiers and sailors will not mutiny. War is like a sinking ship, the cowards jump off before damage control is attempted and then the politicians....erm I mean rats... abandon ship when all hope is lost. The men and women of our military will not abandon their oaths of service or code of conduct unless it is absolutely the right thing to do, and I don't see that as occurring in the Iraq timeline.

Tora
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Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Rsak wrote:Sorry bout that Torakus, meant to say without rather then with. Got distracted by the acronym for some reason.
Someone probably waived a banana near your face.. totally understandable.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Post by Ddrak »

Sorry Tora, wasn't specific enough. By collapse I meant the generals basically tell the Executive and Legislative branches a bunch of things they don't want to hear and begin dictating terms - along the lines of "enough is enough and now we're going to play it our way and you guys can wear the political backlash whether you like it or not". I was in no way inferring the rank and file would do anything but continue to perform their duties to the best of their abilities, and beyond.

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Post by Torakus »

Embar,

OMG, I spit beer on my monitor.

Dd,

In that light, I think that might not be too far off, if it't not happening already. I know the flag ranks were relatively pleased in the first phases of the Iraq war that the politicos were hands off, and have been extremely upset but only nominally vocal about the "political" management of military operations since. It have faith that the military leadership will only take so much party line before they let thier bosses know what is what. Don't be mistaken, the pentagon and whitehouse know the score as it stands, and it's a shitty score, I think it may take an ideological shift in the whitehouse though for the brass's complaints to not fall on deaf ears.
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Post by Fetten »

part of the strain is from the military's shift in missions as a result of the draw downs that hasn't been completed yet. While it's true that some positions are facing draw down in size others are growing rapidly and could be going to iraq in large numbers to do missions they hadn't done before. That will depend though on how much longer the iraq operations continue and military brass deciding on if units are best suited to specific missions.
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